Rabah Rahil (00:00:00):

If you succeed at seven day and you can't succeed at one day, that's a, that's a harder business where if I can succeed at one day click, I know by definition I can succeed at seven day because I am only succeeding at one day. Now I'm giving you six more days to succeed. How can I not scale that faster than if I just start at seven day click and I can only succeed at seven day click, but maybe I can't at one day because I can't win at that first day for episode two, the guy, the guys didn't vote me off the island yet. I made it back. Cody, Ash, how are you fellas?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:00:47):

Good, good. I'm doing well. Well, no one, no, one's heard the first one yet. We're recording this before we launch it. So that might be why this is, this is true. Damn

Rabah Rahil (00:00:54):

It damn clever. Clever. Um, well folks, thanks for tuning into the second episode of ad spend. Um, we have a nice little trifecta for you today. So, uh, Cody and Ash are gonna spar a little bit. Um, we're also gonna talk about exclusions and then Ash is gonna give you the keys to the kingdom, um, in terms of creative testing. So before we jump in, you guys wanna plug in things, say anything,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:01:19):

What's up.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:20):

There you go.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:01:21):

No, no, no plug we'll plug at the end.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:22):

We'll plug it the end,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:01:23):

Straight into it. I'm down to I'm down to spa right away. I'm get,

Rabah Rahil (00:01:26):

Oh, wow. We're just getting Ash is coming off. He's coming off the high of the, uh, brand of the year. He didn't bring in the trophy because he didn't wanna make people feel bad, but shout out Ash and my a, we love you, but let's just jump right in guys. Okay, cool. So Cody, you wanna lead the lead, the dance here?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:01:44):

Yeah. I'm actually gonna turn it over to Ash, but we've been talking about, you know, different attribution windows as it relates to kind of how we're approaching and thinking about optimization as a whole. So I mean, Ash and I, I know we have different opinions about it, so we've only done it through text. So this should be fun. You wanna go ahead Ash kind, explain what you're thinking. Yeah. So I think, um, just to, just to preface the conversation, I think when, when I do talk about how we view the attribution windows, I'm talking about a brand that has an, a heavy reliance on like retention, right? So for us, you know, being a supplement company, um, you know, retention is half the battle, right? So when we're, when we're talking top of the funnel, um, you know what we're trying to do at least post iOS update, right? Um, and the beginning of like model data, it's so difficult to rely on the data that Facebook is showing. Right. Can we agree on that?

Rabah Rahil (00:02:43):

I would agree.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:02:44):

Yep. So, so with that being said, right, I want to get as close to accurate data on Facebook and on whatever I'm using for reporting, whether that be GA or, or triple. I feel like when you start introducing a view component to attribution, your, the platform itself is gonna be a little bit more greedy, right. Because one, they're having a tough time trying to read the data that's coming in. Right. They're, they're missing 50% of the conversions cuz of iOS users, um, plus the 72 hour delay. Right. So they're gonna get a little bit greedy with the attribution when, uh, the, the view through attribution and what ends up happening is that Facebook is saying, okay, well, we're getting all this data and okay, we're gonna optimize based on this. Right. But it's like, not real data. Like it's not, it's not actionable data in my head.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:03:41):

I feel like view through conversions. Aren't actionable data because it's like, you can't replicate that. Right. Or at least from I, if I'm trying to put my mindset in like a, like the algorithm mode, it's like, it's not actionable data for the algorithm to be like, okay, well, this person like saw an ad, but like, what if he just briefly, what if that person like briefly saw it and was gonna buy anyways? Right. Yeah. I want the, the algo to like optimize based on, Hey, I saw this ad, I clicked it and I bought something. Right. And then when you start tossing in like, you know, outside retention efforts, like email and SMS and like exclusions being, you know, the way that they are right now, where it's not a hundred percent and like customers are on their feed and they kind of see it, but we just set down a campaign today.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:04:27):

And like Facebook is attributing that data to the top of the funnel. Like, I don't want any of that because then it just one, it makes Facebook look better on their platform. But then on triple or, you know, Google, it's like, like there's no data. So that's why I am pro just seven day click or even one day click. Um, and like just, I don't, I don't even wanna pay attention to, to view. So you're saying views are non incremental conversions. That Facebook is kind of accounting for. I don't, I don't know how to measure that outside of what Facebook is telling me,

Rabah Rahil (00:05:05):

I can dig it. Let me interject real quick. Cody, before you get on this, um, Ash keeps saying attribution window, the attribution window, and the optimization windows have basically been truncated, um, because they're not different anymore. It used to have a difference in attribution, windows and optimization windows. But now basically your attribution window and your optimization windows are gonna be the same because Facebook will remove the 28 day view one day, click yada, yada. So just throw that out there. You can use basically optimization window and interchange you, but what Ash is talking about is when in your adset, what do you wanna optimize for? And you're going to be either one day click seven day view, or oh seven day click, excuse me. Or seven day click or yeah, seven day click one day view. Okay. Cody yours.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:05:46):

All right. So you're, you're just so I, and for the listeners. And so I can understand, just to try to understand your, your stances. You think Facebook gets greedy and is trying to just kind of over report based on those views to make your return on that spend look better. But those are people who would've probably bought anyways. So those are like non incremental conversions from those views. Correct. I've I would say that the view through conversions are very difficult to calculate incremental increase yet. I'm sure they do help with conversion, but I would rather the algorithm not optimize based on that and just go straight for the click through, um, cause I'm sure obviously like showing the ad and you know, you have to have multiple touch points before you convert mm-hmm <affirmative>. But because like you just said, it's getting greedy and kind of taking that data and like saying, oh, well this ad really helped with the sale when more or less, maybe it didn't.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:06:46):

Right. So for me, it's like, I don't know how to actually, how do you know it didn't so I you're saying, how do you know it did, but I'm asking how do you know it? Didn't it's a good question. I, I mean, there's, there's both, I mean, there's both sides, right? How do I know if it didn't it's like, I don't want to rely on that happening for me to make decisions. Like, I don't wanna see the view data and be like, oh, this ad is great because it, like, for me, it's like, well, how do I, how do I now compare that to another ad? Right. For sure. Have you tested? I'm ju I'm just curious, like, I, I I'll stop coming in hot. We got a lot of time for that. Have you tested, like left all variables? The same ran alongside like seven day click, one day view, seven day click and like one day and one day.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:07:29):

Yeah. A hundred percent. What do you find like in platform versus like in triple on the different ones? So I literally did that this week. Right? I told you guys, I accidentally did it this week. Uhhuh <affirmative> um, basically what I had party <laugh>. Um, but basically what had happened. Okay. So I had, you know, a couple campaigns that were set out seven day click, which I always prioritized. Um, and then by default, right, Facebook will do seven day click one day view. Yeah. Um, so I had forgot to change it. Okay. Everything else kind of stayed the same basically on Facebook platform. Right? Like CPA looked insane. Roaz was insane. Everything else looked great now. Good, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like it looked great. Like I'm talking like two X return, $30 CPAs and like, life was good. Right. If that was actually the case now, if on now on triple whale, right.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:08:21):

I'm seeing that same campaign literally like, look like crap, right? Like there's barely any click through. Right? Like the, the reported conversions in the campaign was at least double or triple at some point double, triple. Yeah. Like right in the, like I'm talking right off the bat. I was like, I think what I texted you guys, it was like, Facebook was saying there was like 20 or 30 conversions. Whereas on triple, there was like 10. Right. Oh, wow. And so when I looked at that's crazy and when I was looking at the CPA number that was even double right now, when I'm going back and looking at the seven day click, those numbers tend to match up a little bit better. Right. And then that I can actually make, you know, better decisions on what to do next. Right. Like, okay, is this ad performing whatnot? Cuz I can say like, okay, it's causing incremental revenue. Cause there's the proof right there that these people came from this ad, they clicked on this ad and they purchased, whereas the other campaign are, it would, it's just some it's assumed that most of these conversions are coming from view through, but how do I, how do I, what do I do with that?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:09:31):

How do you know though that like, isn't there a chance that somebody who clicks on an ad and purchases still meant might have been a non incremental conversion? Like I think that's something I wanna push back on or that's one of the things is like a view. I, I definitely agree with you that many views are probably non incremental, but not all views are, but I bet there's a lot of clicks that happen are not incremental. That person would've purchased otherwise. Yeah. Fair. But I think that also kind of you're like we're targeting, right.

Rabah Rahil (00:10:03):

I I'm more bullish on the former than the latter where I think that you're you're right there, but I, I don't, I don't, I'm not at, I'm more bearish where, um, I think click is pretty strong, but I guess I can give my little kind of 2 cent Switzerland view here so I can, I can stay, uh, neutral and let you guys spar it out. The Jersey boys <laugh> but um, so the way I think of it as an ask, right? And so what you're doing there is you're asking Facebook to find the customer. That's gonna do the thing within this optimization window. And so I ideally one day click is the ideal customer where you show that person to ad they click and then they buy like that is if you can run one day click, that's what I would do. However, a lot of people don't have the volume for that, right? Where the algorithm just can't stay satiated. So

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:10:50):

Why is that ideal to do one day click? Because

Rabah Rahil (00:10:53):

Do that's the best customer? Why, why let me put it to you. Do you want somebody? If you could, all things being equal. If you could get a customer that buys that day or you get a customer that buys in seven days, what customer do you want?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:11:04):

I want the customer that buys in seven days, I have data to show that the longer it takes and the more, the more, the more touch points there are, the higher, the LTV is the higher the LTV is. And the higher the AOV is the longer it takes. And the more touch points we get. I want more friction in the funnel.

Rabah Rahil (00:11:22):

Uh, I don't know. I fundamentally disagree with that. I think that one day clicks it's

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:11:27):

Data. You can't disagree with data

Rabah Rahil (00:11:28):

Possibly. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But I'm what I'm saying is that somebody that has a seven day consideration period and somebody that buys that day, there's no way you're telling me that person, that buys that day is a worse customer than it takes seven days. Furthermore, the economics of having to drip on somebody for seven days versus showing somebody an ad once and they click and buy. Like, you're just not gonna convince me that that's not the best customer. Hold on

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:11:59):

Economic. Yes. Because first of all, that out, first of all, part of this game is whoever can not only spend the most to acquire customer wins, but be the most patient the longest. Right. Be able to throw capital.

Rabah Rahil (00:12:10):

I don't, I don't think those are solid thesis in my opinion or thesis. I don't know what the plural is.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:12:15):

I would you wanna pay more for the customer though?

Rabah Rahil (00:12:17):

Yeah, I don't. I don't get what that work. Yeah. You've never heard, say it a different

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:12:20):

Way. You've never heard the Dan Kennedy quote, whoever can spend the most to acquire customer wins. You don't want to pay more, but every advertisement is a bid against others. And if, if you can spend $50 to acquire customer and I can spend a hundred and you and I are competitors, I'm gonna beat you a hundred times out of a hundred.

Rabah Rahil (00:12:36):

Yeah. But if I can get people to buy on the first day and you have to wait seven days, I'm gonna beat you a hundred times out of a hundred. I, I don't no.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:12:43):

Cause what if, what if I have a, what if you have a 30, a positive 30 day cash conversion cycle and I have a negative 30 day cash conversion cycle. Now I'm now I'm gonna

Rabah Rahil (00:12:54):

Prefer, so you want your money quicker?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:12:56):

No, you don't always want your money quicker. There would be no such thing as investing. If you wanted your money quicker all the time, why would you put money in a stock market? You don't need the money

Rabah Rahil (00:13:04):

Right now. What investment person doesn't want? The returns faster? You're conflating things like I don't understand. Every investment wants their money's faster. The reason

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:13:12):

No you want, that's not true. Why would anybody put their money into real estate? Which is usually like a 10 year hold period at the minimum.

Rabah Rahil (00:13:19):

What's that. But if they could get out, the reason they put their money into real estate is because that's the only way that they can get the returns that they want. And they have to wait. Yes. First of all, that's what I'm capital intensive, real estates, capital intensive. But if they could buy that and flip it in the year, if you could buy a house and flip it in a year, still have your long-term gains and you get the same return that you would have for a 10 year hold. You're telling me that you would rather hold a property for 10 years for the same return that you could get for somebody in a year. That doesn't make any, it's a

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:13:49):

Silly to me, it's a silly question, cuz you can't is what I'm saying. Right?

Rabah Rahil (00:13:52):

But that's but you can on Facebook is I can get you people that are clicking one day. Click is gonna get you people I'm te you're telling Facebook, give me these people at one day, click. I only want people that are gonna buy today. Those by definition are better customers. People that buy today are gonna be better customers than people. That's what buy in seven days.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:14:09):

If that's a one, if, if on a one day window is what you're optimizing your business for then fine. I don't think that's the right thing. I think you should play the long game. And I think, I think beautiful stuff takes time to compound. Right? And we've talked about this before, right? We were trying to acquire customers for a brand that are gonna continue to buy again. And you examine the reasons

Rabah Rahil (00:14:28):

I don't have to use pay that.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:14:29):

Doesn't matter about your,

Rabah Rahil (00:14:30):

I can acquire them with my,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:14:31):

It does. It's why that comes down to the product, right? It doesn't have attribution it's no, that is no. No, we Rob and I have talked about this before and I know we've agreed upon us. It doesn't have to do with the attribution when a product, right. There are so many factors outside of product that influence somebody's retention, right? It's not product it's experience. It's literally, sometimes you can even trace it back to the value prop that you acquire to

Rabah Rahil (00:14:54):

Customer. And what do ads have anything to do with that? Zero. Once you're in their ecosystem, you can get people involved in community. You can get people involved in an email list. You can get, you don't need to show these people ads. So if I can acquire somebody on a one day, click and get them in and buying right then instead of a seven day click, I just fundamentally think that's a one. No, cause

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:15:11):

The more data on it, right? You said you have data on it. Right? What exactly did it say? And what was the test that you did to say this? So, so this is, this is looking at a lot of our sources. So using like UTMs with like LTV cohort, looking at passing, like post-purchase survey data to LTV cohorts. Um, the more education we get in front of somebody, the longer somebody knows about the brand, the higher their AOV and LTV is.

Rabah Rahil (00:15:39):

But, but education, we gotta make sure that we're being precise with their language here. Education isn't paid media. Correct? Are you, when you say education, you saying paid media,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:15:49):

It's all the same. We're using different. That's

Rabah Rahil (00:15:51):

The's the same. It costs you money to spend paid media. It doesn't cost you money to email people. It doesn't cost you money. I mean texting a little bit. Why doesn't cost you money to have people in a community. It doesn't cost you money to reach out to these people. Like all these things are touch points that don't cost money. Paid media is Uber expensive,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:16:05):

But why is it wrong to educate a consumer through paid media?

Rabah Rahil (00:16:08):

Because it's expensive.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:16:10):

But what if you could just do that one day?

Rabah Rahil (00:16:12):

Yeah, exactly. You

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:16:13):

Start because, because the, I want a customer to be educated before they buy, right. I come from direct response marketing. And there's a, there's a statement that I heard, which is never give somebody the opportunity to buy before they've been sold. Right. And what that means is get them sold on the product before you ever ask them to buy. Cuz if they're gonna be a much better customer, then like sales is a, is a, is a series of yeses and momentum. So you wanna educate somebody first. And especially if you have a product that requires education or storytelling, like a customer that comes through on a funnel like that is always gonna be worth more to you. Then a customer who's just buying a product. What does your funnel look like right now in your head? What is your funnel for your so we're building lands.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:16:53):

But a lot of it goes a lot of it if we're talking paid, right? Our top of funnel is educational videos, right? You weave in brand pillars, but, but you're educating on things, not directly related. We're running to educational Landers. So advertorials press right. Third party editorials, usually leading to a quiz. So now some of those people, this all purchase optimized. Some of those people will, will buy, but we want people that are now in our ecosystem that now have multiple touchpoints come to love the brand and all the unique aspects of it and the value propositions. And then they buy, they spend more on the first purchase, which is extremely important. If you can wait that way and then they come back and spend more. Take me through that. No, wait, what? I'll show you the data. No, hold on. Hold on.

Rabah Rahil (00:17:38):

Why would you wanna wait? Not in no way. I'm I'm not refuting. I like your thesis. It's just, there's some things I think are interesting. Sorry,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:17:44):

But hold on. So can, no, I'm just saying, how would you explain what happens in that seven day window? That can't happen on a one day window. Hold on. If, let me ask, let me ask Rob this. If you could get a 10% return today or a 20% return in a week, which one would you choose?

Rabah Rahil (00:18:01):

10% return today. All day. And I will scale that because guess what? I have more time to get retention money from them. There's in my ecosystem. Hold on. I would,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:08):

I just, I'm talking about in the market, in the market, in the

Rabah Rahil (00:18:12):

Stock market, in the market, I would, well, the market depends because the it's a little different because you're making not,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:17):

It depends no context.

Rabah Rahil (00:18:19):

No, no.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:20):

You're always making capital work for you. What is business?

Rabah Rahil (00:18:23):

But that's why I point I want my returns faster. Like all things being,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:28):

I want maximum amount of returns, right?

Rabah Rahil (00:18:30):

I'm saying all things being equal. You want your returns faster? No. And your thesis is,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:35):

But it's not all things being equal.

Rabah Rahil (00:18:36):

That's what I'm

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:37):

Saying. It's not all things being equal,

Rabah Rahil (00:18:38):

But that's what I'm saying. So your thesis is that the longer you wait, the more money you can get out of people.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:43):

Yes. Theoretical.

Rabah Rahil (00:18:44):

So then why don't you not sell until 28 days? Why don't you not sell for three months? Why don't you do you

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:18:49):

Have to find the balance? You have to find the balance between total return on investment and cash flow. And if you're in a position where you need cash flow on day one, great. But you're always gonna be beat by somebody who doesn't need cash flow on day one. Cuz they can wait.

Rabah Rahil (00:19:04):

Cause they can

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:19:05):

To realize value. I think they can wait. I think they can spend more on that day.

Rabah Rahil (00:19:09):

Yeah. That's all that's happening is that the, the waiting is,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:19:12):

Are you kidding me? Look at the Nikes of the world. They're putting millions and millions and millions and millions with no hopes of a one day return cuz they know they're getting that back.

Rabah Rahil (00:19:21):

Response play. That's a brand awareness play. It's a CPG play. Why do you think tide spends so much money? Why? So you're getting into different business models now where we're getting,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:19:28):

It's not different business models, Brandon and, and, and directly sponsor false dichotomies. They're false dichotomies.

Rabah Rahil (00:19:36):

Or let me lay my thesis out and then you can rip me apart. So ultimately you have a CPG play, right? Where, how many times do you buy shoes?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:19:46):

A lot.

Rabah Rahil (00:19:47):

Not that often. Or maybe you're a sneaker, I guess a lot, but really not that often. Right? I mean this isn't or detergent or something like that, right? It's not like you're buying detergent every day. You buy detergent every couple weeks, every, every whatever. But when you do buy it, what do you think of? Why do you think tide buys a whole bunch of ads? Because all these people aren't buying tied, they're putting you at top of mind and then hopefully because these businesses basically, once you align to these business, another example is, uh, of cell phone providers. Why do cell phone providers pay so much to acquire people? Why do Comcast or these cable providers pay so much? Because people never leave. Banks are the same way. They never leave. And so they can pay all this money to acquire them because they never leave.

Rabah Rahil (00:20:31):

There's this huge retention play. But at the same time, it's like you, the business model's totally different when you're selling a consumable. And so a CPG mindset, you're gonna spend a bazillion dollars because you need to be top of mind when that person goes, oh yeah, I need a Nike shoe or oh yeah. I need to buy detergent. It's totally different than a direct response play where it's like, Hey you need, because a direct response play is you need this product now buy it when you're on a TV. How, how, what is the response for a D a TV ad? Is there any like call to action in a TV ad is tide saying you should go buy, which ones is tide saying, now you should go buy tide. Pods is Comcast saying, oh, now you should buy cable. No they're saying, Hey, cable's great. Or no, you should buy this phone or no, you should do like there, there's no actual response to that. And that's why it's brand awareness. It's the CPG play where you're just,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:21:22):

You're thinking that too tactically. It's it's not that right. The companies are deploying capital to get a return on their investment in optimizing for a certain time horizon. Right? The difference between brand and direct responses are just optimizing for a different time horizon. That's the difference.

Rabah Rahil (00:21:37):

Yes. I totally agree with you there. That's a huge difference,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:21:44):

But, but that's the difference. That's the only difference. I'm just saying like

Rabah Rahil (00:21:47):

There's massive difference, right?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:21:49):

No. Like,

Rabah Rahil (00:21:50):

Because if I spend a million dollars and I'm waiting for six months to recoup that versus I spend a million dollars and I make a million dollars this month, that's not a big difference.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:21:59):

It is. But if, if you can make 1 million to get three back in six months or 1 million to get 1.1 back today, like

Rabah Rahil (00:22:08):

You wouldn't take that.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:22:10):

I would take the, the three, why I would set up my business to figure out how to take the three, not the 1.1, but why, unless you're that hurting for the cash flow.

Rabah Rahil (00:22:18):

But why couldn't you just scale the 1.1?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:22:22):

Cause you're not gonna get the same scale. You're not gonna just be able to continue to do that and get the same scale. And you're gonna hit a certain ceiling where you're just plateaued. But

Rabah Rahil (00:22:29):

By definition, if you can convert at one day, click by expanding that out. What all these people are just not gonna buy.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:22:42):

I don't follow.

Rabah Rahil (00:22:43):

So by definition, one day click is encompassed in seven day click, correct?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:22:48):

Sure.

Rabah Rahil (00:22:50):

Cause one day is within the seven day window. Right?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:22:53):

I understand your, the math. Yeah. I'm not. I

Rabah Rahil (00:22:56):

Get that. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. So if you can succeed at one day click mm-hmm <affirmative> why couldn't you succeed at seven day? If you succeed at seven day and you can't succeed at one day, that's a, that's a harder business where if I can succeed at one day click, I know by definition I can succeed at seven day because I am only succeeding at one day. Now I'm giving you six more days to succeed. How can I not scale that faster than if I just start at seven day click and I can only succeed at seven day click, but maybe I can't at one day because I can't win at that first day.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:23:34):

I didn't say you. I didn't say anybody. Can't right. It just depends on what you're optimizing for.

Rabah Rahil (00:23:39):

That's fair

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:23:40):

Cody. Over what time period you're optimizing for,

Rabah Rahil (00:23:44):

But you don't want your money faster.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:23:46):

I want, if I wanted my money now, I wouldn't put money into the stock market, right? It's not always about having my money. Now. It's about deploying capital to get the return on investment. I

Rabah Rahil (00:23:56):

Want, let me ask

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:23:57):

You sometimes that's over a longer time. Horizon

Rabah Rahil (00:23:59):

Is money now, better than money later or money later, better than money. Now

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:24:05):

It depends when you need it.

Rabah Rahil (00:24:07):

Oh, now you give me the context and now you're getting the context. It

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:24:10):

Does it, it depends when you need it.

Rabah Rahil (00:24:13):

I try to bring in context and you're like, oh, no context.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:24:17):

Wait, Cody, have you looked at that data? Where, how, how many, what, what's the timeframe for your customers? Like where's the majority of them purchasing like on one day? Is it seven days? Is it after we're seven we're we're? I would say majority seven. And then we are seven to, you know, what's the difference between one day and seven day for you? I don't wanna like Misco anything. Um, seven's seven's definitely higher and the AOV is much lower on a one day, much lower on a one day.

Rabah Rahil (00:24:50):

I do agree with

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:24:51):

Thesis. So why wouldn't if I, if I have plenty of cash in the bank and I have zero issues of running outta capital, why wouldn't I wait six extra days to get a 10% higher AOV? Gimme a greater reason running with targeting. Isn't AOV typically higher. I agree with that. Hold on, hold on. Just before we go on anything else, answer my question. Is there any reason, is there any reason why I wouldn't wait to get a 10% better return? If I had plenty of cash in the bank,

Rabah Rahil (00:25:18):

I would uh, say that the, for me I would scale. I would try and scale one day, click. If you can win it one day, click, you're gonna win it. Seven day click

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:25:29):

Even hold on. You not answering my question

Rabah Rahil (00:25:32):

So well, cuz I think you're kind of putting a straw in argument where I don't, I agree them later. Touch points are gonna give you more money. But what you're not saying is you're not netting more. Guess what? Those touch points, cost money. And so as you're gonna impress these ads in these ads, you're wasting more money to get that conversion. So even though you're getting 10%,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:25:52):

How I'm wasting more money,

Rabah Rahil (00:25:53):

Because by definition you said, you're gonna show them touch points, impressions, aren't free on paid media. So you're gonna use that money.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:26:00):

It doesn't have to be paid. It

Rabah Rahil (00:26:01):

Doesn't have to be well. That's what, so I thought you were talking in the lens of paid that's. My whole point is like, if you have a one day click, you get them in the funnel, you get them to purchase. And now they're in your ecosystem. Whereas you have to spend seven days of money on these people. So even though you're gonna make more money from the purchase, the C is gonna be higher. That's my whole point of retargeting where like retargeting, you have to have the economics for it. Cuz by the end of, if you're retargeting, isn't three or four X you're prospecting, it's gonna be challenging because you're touching these people so many times that you have to pay for these touch. And so eventually the C catches up with the actual net that you're getting from. Even though people are spending more money with you, you paid more money for those people or that's, that's where I'm coming from.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:26:46):

What if, if, if the whole point is AOV, right? What if you were able to say, for example, on your landing page, you had one massive deal for top of the funnel, right? Instead of selling, like for us $40 protein, I had to sell a whole bundle, a hundred dollars bundle $200 bundle. And that was the only thing you could buy. Right? Wouldn't I wouldn't it make sense to also maybe spend a little bit more on the C on day one, then spread out seven days worth of spend just to get somebody to buy that bundle after seven days. Isn't it almost the same thing. I'm not optimizing for CAC. I'm I'm I'm sorry. I'm not optimizing for AOV. I'm optimizing for LTV. So AOV is one factor in LTV, but it's not just that. I don't wanna get the highest AOV today. I wanna get the customer. That's gonna continue to come back again and again.

Rabah Rahil (00:27:32):

And, and that's my whole thesis is that somebody that you can convince to buy your product on the first day is gonna be a super fan versus somebody that convinces you convince, takes se, think of it like this. If you have to ask this girl out today and she wants to go out with you today, that is a very, very vibrant lead versus I have to ask this girl 6, 7, 8 times for me just to go out with me

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:27:56):

Hard.

Rabah Rahil (00:27:58):

Maybe we disagree to disagree, but I, I don't know. I just think that you have to, the, the more you spend it does, the more you spend has to be in line with making more money. So yeah, I agree. You're gonna have multiple touchpoints and they're gonna buy more, but at the same time, like why couldn't you get these people in the ecosystem? And then you show 'em an ad and on one day click they buy and then boom, you got your return back versus I agree with you on the LTV. But also LTV is only one function, right? There's acquisition cost. And so even if your LTVs through the roof, if I'm paying $150 for people that have a hundred dollars LTV, that's not gonna net out. So

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:28:36):

Cody, why can't you educate the consumer after one day? Right? You're saying that, okay. Within that seven days, I'd say outside of paid, right? What did you have in mind outside of pay paid to educate the consumer? So I think the reason why it's important cuz you, yes, you can educate it after the sale, after initial acquisition. But I think the majority of retention efforts happen before the sale. And I think I want to educate them as much and get them fall, not educate, also inspire, get them falling in love with the brand before the sale. And I think that makes a huge difference on what their retention's gonna look like after the sale that's call. But that's tough to measure. No, I feel like if, if, if somebody's coming back, right, it's purely because at, at least in my opinion, I think it's the post purchase experience that they receive.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:29:22):

Right. I don't think that's it's product and experience. Yeah. So, but what do you, but what are you giving to them prior, other than like tutorials or like knowledge about the product? Like I don't understand. I mean, ed, to me in any education, you're not just educating you or you're inspiring, you're weaving in brand pillars, you're hitting emotional connections, right? You're trying to build a deeper emotional connection to the brand. So that's kind of, that's kind of the main one. Yes. There is some product education that, you know, the, the first experience with the product is extremely important and yes, you can do this post purchase, but you wanna make sure somebody is having a great experience. And if they don't know how to use your product correctly from the beginning, they're not gonna have a great experience. And when dopamine is highest, you wanna make sure they're having a great experience. So sometimes you have to do that before they ever get the product.

Rabah Rahil (00:30:13):

I totally, yes, you

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:30:13):

Can do it.

Rabah Rahil (00:30:15):

I think there, but

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:30:17):

Sorry. One thing about if you were to do this with entirely new brand, right, would the premise change? It depends on the cash flow considerations, but again, and this is where we, we talk about like the fuel, not the fire. If I'm gonna do a new brand, I'm gonna set the business up to have the best cash flow I can. So that allows me to play a long term game. And that is where I think you win.

Rabah Rahil (00:30:41):

I think we might be saying the same thing, different ways. So let me bring this around a little bit. So if you are on, so say I follow your amazing brand Jones road. I see your incredible TikTok. It doesn't cost you money. Right? I follow you organically. I watch your awesome YouTube videos on the product education. Fantastic. And then I say a Facebook ad and I buy the first day. How is that person not more valuable than somebody that does all that? And it takes them seven days to consider to buy.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:31:12):

We're literally just going back to the initial question, it's like, you didn't hear 30 minutes of what I've just said.

Rabah Rahil (00:31:18):

Okay. Fair point.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:31:19):

<laugh> I'm sorry. I don't mean to be a Dick.

Rabah Rahil (00:31:22):

No, no, no, no. I'm not. Yo no, I think you have, I love your views. I just think that for me personally, somebody that buys something the first day is way more valuable of a customer to me than somebody that buys something. And it takes me seven days to con convince them that they're they should buy this product.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:31:42):

I think there's also less valuables to consider on a one day window. Right? You're like, if you expand it out to seven days, then the, the actual consumer is totally different. Right? You can't optimize for different types of consumers at that level. I feel like at least on the one day it's like, okay, well here's my angle. Here's the person that wants to buy something. Boom. Now I can optimize based on that. I can't bucket different at least prior, or at least after these updates, I can't bucket different people according to what they do. Right? Like before you could retarget based on what page they saw or how long they were on the website, this and that, that I would agree maybe prior to the update, you could do that. Now. It's like this cluster fuck of like, okay, well I just gotta group everybody and just get them to buy now and just move on.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:32:29):

Right. Figure out post purchase with them later, create the experience after the fact. Let me just get them into the, the, the concept of alright for us, like collagen, let me get them to buy that. And then, all right, well we have 10 other products. Let me educate that. Let me educate that consumer later. Right. If I can't like if somebody came to our website for a collagen ad, right. And then all of a sudden they went and ended up looking at our multivitamin. Okay. Before I could retarget based on the multivitamin. Cause that's probably what they're more interested in. Right. I can't do that anymore effectively, effectively. So I think personally one day click and which, I mean, I'm still with you. I still use seven day click to test because I can't get those 50 conversions in one day. Same, but on the scaling campaign, that is one day click and it's like, all right, let's just pump out, pump out, uh, consumers at the quickest rate. Again, that's totally my condition

Rabah Rahil (00:33:23):

On it. Same context for me as well. Like ideally if I can get one day click to work, that's my gold standard. If I can't. I actually, so this is interesting Ash, cuz I actually diverge a little bit from you here where I either like, if I can get one day click to work, that's my gold standard. If not, I just wanna open it up all the way to the biggest ATRI or optimization window of seven day click one day view and just give as much signal as possible. Um, but I do think it is to your point, contextual where the view throughs can be, um, you know, a little suss at best in terms of performance where it's like, ah, just because you're impressed on me or just because I received an impression and now like you get to claim, this conversion feels a lit a, a little fuzzy. Can

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:34:03):

We, can we talk about that though? Actually? Have you used Snapchat and like Pinterest ads?

Rabah Rahil (00:34:08):

Yeah. Well not I've used them, but not their attribution. I mean, Pinterest I think is like a 30 day window or something. I mean it's, it's, it's pretty egregious.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:34:16):

I, I think when we, we, there was one month we're like, okay, let's spend on Pinterest. Let's figure it out. Let's do the full 30 days and see what happens. Okay. $50,000 budget on Pinterest. Okay. It Pinterest itself, the ad account was like, oh 50 K, we just made you guys $200,000 and I'm like month over month. We're we're the same level, but I just spent 50 K and like I'm looking at post purchase surveys, right? Zero Pinterest users. Oh where'd you hear about the brand Facebook? And it's like, where the hell are you getting this at? Like, what are you, how are you telling me? Pinterest is driving these conversions, right? Yeah. Snapchat is just as bad. Right? There's a reason they have a three hour view attribution window on it because it just doesn't, it doesn't work this way. I would rather the, the platform optimize on like, all right, this person clicked.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:35:08):

It's an actual action. That's been tracked. They went and bought and it's like, you can link those two together view. It's like, oh, I just scrolled past this ad. Oh whatever. Oh, let me just attribute it to this ad. This is like, I, I don't want Facebook to do that. And I get your premise of like, it helps. Right. It probably helps like, okay, maybe that one. Person's like, oh, I remember seeing this yesterday. Let we go and buy right. Totally fair. But would that not also happen on just a seven day click, but you're actually izing for like just better and cleaner data.

Rabah Rahil (00:35:38):

I mean, that's a fair point. I guess I'm coming at it from the, um, quant point of view of getting X amount of conversions where those view views would count as conversions. And so you can keep the algorithms associated. And I, but I do think that you have a fair point in saying that that data isn't as, or that consumer who converts on a view through conversion isn't as valuable as somebody that converts on a seven or on a, a click through conversion. So I, I, I take your point there. What are you smiling about? Cody? Get in here.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:08):

<laugh> next topic. Okay. No, all alright. Let's, let's go transition to retargeting, right? Yeah. So Rob, what are you drinking right now?

Rabah Rahil (00:36:19):

One more time.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:20):

What, what are you drinking right now? I saw you drinking something,

Rabah Rahil (00:36:22):

Uh, suya,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:23):

Just, and, and that's like a greens. And what are some other greens brands that you know of?

Rabah Rahil (00:36:28):

Uh, athletic greens. You got me on.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:29):

Oh, oh. How'd you hear about that?

Rabah Rahil (00:36:31):

Friends? What

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:32):

Do people say about that on Twitter?

Rabah Rahil (00:36:34):

It's everywhere. I kind of got peer

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:36):

Pressure where specifically where if they see one more, what

Rabah Rahil (00:36:39):

Athletic greens ad.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:36:40):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think, I think the important thing is like, I don't disagree with you guys at all about the data and I am so far from the world's best media buyer. I'm not that analytical of a person. And like there's probably so much in our ad account that like is not set up properly. Right. But I think what I understand is like how people actually buy and how consumers think mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if you think about it, and if you guys are in a retargeting funnel, like at least I pay attention to how things make me feel when I'm in a retargeting funnel. Right. And part of it is you hear a new brand, you get introduced, whether that's PR what, whatever it is, it's not just Facebook filling the top of the funnel. You get retargeted and you get the sensation of, oh, I'm seeing this brand everywhere.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:37:18):

You know, I'm seeing it all the time and that's, it's called Omni presence. And I think that we can't discount that we can't be so myopic as media buyers to say, you know, that, that if it's a view, it doesn't count because yes. And, and I'll talk about the data in a second, but yes, you can't those it's, I don't know how you can say those are non incremental because when I buy stuff, that is definitely a consideration. It's not the only factor that makes me buy, but I don't think anything is the only factor we all, most people interact with multiple touchpoints in their journey with a brand. And I think you want people to interact with multiple touchpoints before they buy. So I'm gonna see the athletic greens a, then I'm gonna go and search it on Google. I might even talk to a friend like I'm gonna do a bunch of that stuff before buying. I agree when I just have one question for you, when you, what, how do you define incremental? I don't know. Cause I don't mean, I, I don't do increment incremental studies. I don't even know how to do that. So I don't know how to define that. So for me, right. For me, when I say incremental, right. I can directly say this ad brought in this amount of revenue. Right. Okay. If I, which

Rabah Rahil (00:38:25):

Wouldn't have happened,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:38:26):

Which wouldn't have happened, right. Yeah. Now on a view. Okay. I can't determine that. Okay. Okay. That's that fair. Now, when you're talking about athletic greens, uh, or marketing strategy, or even like, golly, golly does this too. I, I think we talked about this before. Right? Our retargeting strategy has always been let's use influencers or using other accounts, right? Like white listing. But the thing is, is that when we set this up, okay. The way that we set it up is every, we have like 20 accounts that we have under the Avi umbrella that we've created for our influencers. Okay. The way that we set this up is one campaign. Each person gets their own ad set. Okay. All targeting website, visitors. Okay. What happens here? And here's my theory. Cause I think, I, I think I've proved this theory is that because they're different profiles.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:39:23):

They're not, they're, they're all gonna get placed into the auction. They're not gonna compete against each other cuz they're not the same page. Right. So what happens is, is that when you're scrolling, you are gonna multiple ads from different people about the same thing, which is what a athletic greens does and what, what golly does. Right. I've had people text me like there's so many people using your product and I'm just like, yeah, that's the strategy. Okay. Now when it comes down to incremental revenue on triple well, these ads do Jack shit. Okay. On Facebook, I'm running it seven day click one day view for the purpose of the fact that you just said, I just want people to see it everywhere. Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. I'm not, I'm not bumping the budget based on like, oh, this performance has like a four X return, five X return.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:40:11):

I just want people to fall on this funnel of just seeing a ton of people using it. And that's fine. Right. I'm okay with that. I know. I can't measure increment. I can't measure the revenue that it's technically bringing in on like a click. But if people are seeing that and like, oh everyone's using this. That is what I want. Okay. I can't, even though, though, they're viewing, even though they're viewing. Yeah. I can't directly. Yeah, no, no. I agree. No, I agree with that on a retargeting level. Cause prospecting is like a whole different beast. Yeah. Hundred percent.

Rabah Rahil (00:40:44):

I do. I actually agree with Ash on that. I do think prospecting, RET targeting are very different. Um, but to go, going back to your athletic greens, Cody, like I literally had seen a bazillion athletic greens ads and I literally would've never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever bought it. If it wasn't for you a hundred percent full stop influenced. Yeah. You, you asked me

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:04):

And you asked me and, and you can't say that the ads didn't have some level of

Rabah Rahil (00:41:10):

They, if they had zero, if it I'm telling you zero, I've seen them before, dude, I'm in the space. I'm hip to it. Literally. You are the reason that I bought it. I checked with you. You're like,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:20):

They're not, I'm not that influential. You guys.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:24):

I know your fitness guy. I know there stuff.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:28):

RA, do you buy stuff online? If you see an a in general

Rabah Rahil (00:41:31):

Haven't bought, I haven't bought stuff online. When I see

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:34):

Is that because you are a marketer or that's just because that's just, you're buying behavior.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:39):

I get crappy ads, quite frankly, like I'll get, I'll get, I'll get caught. Or a lot of times I'll uh, I like to get caught in like guru funnels just to see like funny gurus. And so I always like that. Facebook thinks

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:50):

You're Facebook.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:51):

Has

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:51):

You in like the conversion or the traffic audience? Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:55):

Yeah. <laugh>

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:41:56):

Exactly.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:57):

You're just taking jabs. I the, oh

Rabah Rahil (00:42:01):

Man. No, no, I haven't really. Um, no, I quite frankly, I can't think of the last time I bought like from a proper ad. Oh, liquid death. No, that was email. That was an email. Actually. You don't

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:42:14):

Know if it's an add or an email. I bet you saw the ads. You just don't

Rabah Rahil (00:42:17):

Email. No, no, no. It was a hundred percent email. I remember the email cuz it's ride the lightning on the shirt and I was like, this is such a weird company too. Cuz they sell water and I've bought more merch than I have their actual core product, which is pretty incredible to me in my, my opinion. But uh, what about you guys?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:42:33):

My point was is that as a marketer, right? I see what's going on right with athletic greens or golly. And it's like everybody they're whitelisting this and that. And it's like, that's great retargeting, but I know what they're doing. Right. Might be a great product. I don't know if it's a great product right. Then I would go like, Hey Cody, this is a good product. Yes. Great. I'll buy it. If not, I know what they're doing. Right. What if it's a ship product and they're just really good at marketing, right? Yeah. So that's why I'm saying like for the average consumer, if they're seeing multiple touch points, that makes sense to me. But on like every other reason, like I think, I think my, my thoughts on going back to the topic, right? My thoughts on retargeting is that is the proper retargeting approach outside of like trying to retarget based on, uh, what's the word

Rabah Rahil (00:43:25):

Like

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:43:26):

History

Rabah Rahil (00:43:27):

Preferences kind thing.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:43:27):

Exactly. Yeah. Like what they did on their website, this and that, because what's happening is retargeting is happening. Even at the top of the funnel. Like there, if they saw an ad or whatever they engage, they'll probably see another ad in your top of the funnel too. That's still acting as retargeting and I've seen it happen. Like no. So, so hold up. But you guys were just telling me that retargeting is a totally different piece than prospecting. And now you're saying actually like you're doing retargeting in prospecting. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (00:43:54):

Well I don't run any exclusions at the prospecting level.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:43:59):

So then it is retargeting.

Rabah Rahil (00:44:01):

Well, ish. I mean, when I, when you run broad, you have so much inventory that the, the, if somebody's not like you can check this by frequency. Right. And so like your frequency is just gonna be so low that there's no way that these people like literally that's how you would know if people are seeing the ads more than once. And so like your frequency's gonna be two, maybe three, whereas your retargeting might be 10, might be eight, um, frequency where it's like, you're showing somebody an ad seven times or six times, and then, then they're buying. And again, this goes back to where like, I don't think retargeting is for everybody. Like if you have, don't have the economics, you're gonna pay 40 or $50 on the whole for a $40 AOV. Like how do you make that work? Whereas like you can pay $30 for a $50 AOV on prospecting. And so again, that's why I think you're prospecting, you're retargeting. They need to be, um, you know, fact, um, three to four X difference in terms of

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:44:57):

Terms. Well, you blended is what matters. Ish's factor blended. I won't have a, I don't, I don't have a separate retargeting campaign, which is my, which is the point I'm trying to get at.

Rabah Rahil (00:45:07):

Yeah.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:45:08):

You don't cause it's now it's already. No, I don't. I literally have our prospecting. Right. Consolidated, just broad excluding customers. That's it. And then I have the, the whitelisting campaign purely for the fact, I want people to see multiple people. So you do, so you do have that. You do have a RET targeting campaign. It's not, it's not like

Rabah Rahil (00:45:29):

Based off of web, past visitors and

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:45:31):

Stuff like that. Yeah. It's, it's very, very generic. It's just like massively, just 180 day visitors and that's RET. It is. But my point is is that I'm not going to go and it, it's not retargeting based on like, okay, I showed a collagen versus a burn. Oh, I don't do that either. But it's still retargeting. Yeah. It it technic, but I'm not dude. I've always set that budget at like 500 a day and just, I will continuously let that run. I won't even touch it. Even if it's like performing or not, I will never touch it because all what you'll see is when you fall into my funnel is 20 people using product. Yeah. That's great. That's amazing. So can I say one more thing on retargeting and then we can switch shop X

Rabah Rahil (00:46:12):

Of course Cody, this is the word, this is your world, baby. We're just living in, come

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:46:16):

On. No, it's not. No, it's not. All right. So we just ran a study, right? Cause cuz we switched some stuff up and retargeting and, and Ash, you know, I run a pretty similar thing where we do as much weight listing as possible. We run it all in one, right? So like we're very consolidated. We, we now have one broad I'm testing. We have one broad, um, we have, you know, one broad evergreen on, on auto I'm testing cost caps on another broad. And then we have

Rabah Rahil (00:46:39):

Just gonna get you that

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:46:40):

I'm going. And then one more, um, and then creative testing, right? And we do layers and creative testing and then we have one, um, retargeting, broad adset that's very consolidated right and performance. Wasn't great. We, we just consolidated and performance wasn't as good. We just hired kind of a new guy starting as a freelancer. And he just ran a correlation study on all of these different metrics. And the, the, the biggest correlation that we found was retargeting spend and Google brand clicks, impressions spend and conversions. So the more we're spending on retargeting, the more, and it, I think backs up my, my point about how views do matter. If you look at the entire funnel, right? It's like if views didn't matter, like YouTube ADSS wouldn't exist, you know, for a direct response. So the more we're spending on Facebook retargeting and building that omnipresence and brand awareness, the more we are spending, the more people are searching for us specifically.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:47:33):

How do you correlate that though? Uh, I'm not a math guy. He ran a correlation study. You just, you just look at, you kind of do a correlation of, you know, this is stats stuff that I, I failed stats class, totally. To be honest, but you that's why I didn't do it, but you literally just run it and I can ask 'em for you. And you literally just run it. And you see the correlation over time between how much you're spending on Facebook, retargeting on, on all these metrics and lines up and how much you're spending on Google brand. How, how much, you know, how many clicks you're getting, how much conversions you're getting on Google brand search.

Rabah Rahil (00:48:03):

Have you ever netted out like the unit economics? Cause I agree with you. You're right. But at the same time, like if you're paying more for the customer, you're eating into all of that profit. And so even though they're spending more with you, you're just paying way more.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:48:17):

How, how are you paying more?

Rabah Rahil (00:48:20):

You just said you're spending more ads. Right? You're buying all of these retargeting plays. Right? So branded search is absolutely retargeting play. Mm-hmm <affirmative> retargeting proper where you said you're retargeting. Like these are, these are ancillary touch points outta sight of prospecting. These people know who you are. They've touched your website. They've watched your videos, all these things. And so they're touching, you're touching these people multiple times, right? With paid.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:48:44):

Yes.

Rabah Rahil (00:48:45):

So that means you're spending more than if you are in prospecting where you're gonna touch 'em once or twice.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:48:50):

No, I, I don't, I don't agree. It's like, it's like saying why your

Rabah Rahil (00:48:54):

Frequency campaigns, your frequency of prospecting is the same as your frequency for your retargeting.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:48:59):

Hold up. No, it's not, but possible. Hold on. It's not, but, but it's like saying like why buy four tires for your car when you could have bought one? Cuz one is cheaper. Well guess what one doesn't get the job done. Cause you can't drive a car on one tire. And I think that you can prospect, most people are not, unless you're at a really low AOV. Most people are not gonna buy again. I'm not gonna do the whole seven touch points thing. Right. I don't know that, but most people are not gonna buy on the first day. So I actually think you're wasting money. If you're not retargeting, if you're not doing Google brand, I disagree. I think for us, the majority of our people buy on first deck, which is why we've like, yeah, but you guys have a different AOV and a different price point.

Rabah Rahil (00:49:40):

I would, it would be interesting to run an incre mentality, test Cody for, I don't know what the scale is if you're branded, but kill it for two weeks or a week and see what it actually does to your sales mm-hmm <affirmative> and you'd be surprised where you spent no money on Brandon and guess what nothing happened or your sales might actually go up. Um, so I would, so I agree with that. I would test that I would test your incre mentality because Google Brandon search is notorious dude, for claiming like you're basically giving people a ticket right before they buy. And then Google claims a conversion. It's like, you didn't drive any incrementality. A lot of times people are just searching for Jones road and they see the first thing and they click on it like they would've bought anyways. So

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:50:17):

I'm not saying that that Google brand is the most important thing. What I'm saying is that this is proof that top of funnel discovery, even middle funnel discovery. Even if people aren't clicking brings traffic to your website later on,

Rabah Rahil (00:50:32):

I don't care about traffic. I care about conversions.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:50:35):

How the fuck does somebody buy? If they don't get to your website, traffic comes before conversions,

Rabah Rahil (00:50:40):

But traffic and conversions are totally different. You can have a ton of traffic in zero conversions. That's not one. And the same just because you drive a ton of traffic to your site doesn't mean you get conversions. That's that's a toll false dichotomy.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:50:51):

It is. It is one data point though, that matters. And by the way, one of the data points I said is Google conversions. Quality

Rabah Rahil (00:50:57):

Traffic is a way better data point than quantity of traffic. And what is quality of traffic? Quality of traffic is a function of conversions.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:51:05):

Try doing 5 million this month with 10,000 visitors to your site.

Rabah Rahil (00:51:09):

I will show you a case study that I literally had this guy. So the OG growth formula, right, is traffic conversion rate, um, AOV. He had all three of these data points. This guy made a million dollars in a year of revenue and he lost 22,000.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:51:26):

We're

Rabah Rahil (00:51:26):

Not 2000 profit. No, I know you're I know you're running a fantastic business. You have a brilliant mind, but I'm just trying to tell you that like traffic isn't the end all be all the whole point is conversions.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:51:35):

I never said it is. I never said it is, but what

Rabah Rahil (00:51:37):

Would you want? Conversions

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:51:38):

Or without traffic? You

Rabah Rahil (00:51:39):

Can't, but you can do traffic without conversions, correct? Uh,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:51:41):

Yes, but I, yes, but that's like a, that's like a straw in our argument, but you can't do conversions without traffic,

Rabah Rahil (00:51:48):

But you can have traffic without conversions. And so traffic is your north star. I can show you, Hey Cody, I increased traffic by 300%, but nobody converted. Quality of traffic is what matters.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:00):

Quantity never said to north star. I never, no,

Rabah Rahil (00:52:02):

I know, but you're saying that traffic is like this huge, huge deal. It's like, yes, it is ish. But at the same time, how much are you paying for that traffic? And then how much of the quality of these people are actually converting that that's quality.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:12):

Quality is very high. The conversion rate on, on this Google brand is extremely high. Our blended is very because there's searching for your brand anyway. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (00:52:21):

It would be fine, but you

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:22):

Don't, but you don't know a competitor can come in there and sweep 'em up. You don't know that's a

Rabah Rahil (00:52:26):

D argument. That's a different argument. That's a defensive buy. Yeah. That's

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:30):

A two reasons you should use branded search one, if you are organically not showing up or two competitors

Rabah Rahil (00:52:35):

Are BI up defensive buys. Yes. Defensive buys are totally legit for

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:38):

Branded search. There's so many brands that don't run brand a

Rabah Rahil (00:52:40):

Hundred percent, a hundred percent with that.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:52:44):

So, so, but that's a different question again, I'm saying all I'm showing with the correlation is that there's, there's some evidence from our business that view through stuff, whether it's top of funnel or middle of funnel drives people to our website. I'm not saying, saying anything about the effectiveness of brand search versus just organic search. But what I'm saying is it drives people to our website that even if we don't see that data in Facebook ads manager, right? There's a correlation with how much we spend on those and how many people we get to our website and how many purchases we get on our website.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:16):

So I love all that, but I would, I would be really interested to see if you could, uh, run an incre mentality test where you literally just cut off Google for the week and see how your numbers look because the, the, there there's really no other way to, um, really get a good read on it. Just shut it off, kill it, kill it for a week and see what

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:53:34):

Your numbers are. Organic Ko. Organic is a lot more than most people.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:39):

You have a huge presence. A hundred

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:53:41):

Percent. Yeah. So like, if you spend more, right, because let's just say right, you, you guys went viral and you still have that like top of like brand awareness going on, you spending more like what if those people are still gonna buy? I think I personally wanna see the study. Right? Cause what, if you didn't, I'll I'll show you what, if you didn't spend more, would you still have made the same amount? Cause I feel like you still would've,

Rabah Rahil (00:54:06):

That's kind of the incrementality that we're talking about is like, is this money actually getting new people in? Are you just giving people tickets to claim credit for conversions? And again, I'm not talking about what you're

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:54:16):

Doing about target or Google brand.

Rabah Rahil (00:54:18):

You can do both again. It's incrementality testing, turn it off and see what happens or turn it up and see what happens because ultimately what you're gonna do is there's no other way to really understand the lift that you're getting from this channel, unless you cut it off or turn it to 11. So

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:54:34):

Go ahead. Have you looked at, have you looked at the customer journeys on triple well lately? Yes. I don't understand them at all, to be honest. Okay. The second question, we'll talk about those later can edit that part question beep the, the other point is right when you're, when you're running top of the funnel, right? And you go, you know how triple oil gives you all the orders and what that person did have. You just studied what some of these people have been doing a hundred percent. Right? So for your, your top of the funnel, are those people completely just have never heard of the brand before click that ad and then bought, or have they been to the site because you have an organic presence because you have that top of the funnel. I mean that brand awareness, then they're ending up seeing the Facebook ads and then buying, have you seen that behavior? Both a hundred percent. I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't think that there's, you know, I tweeted yesterday, like the best way to be good at Facebook ads is, is to be a brand is because you call it incremental or not. Right? I don't think that Facebook, especially these days can truly target effectively enough to go after a truly cold prospect. I even, I had, I had a call today

Rabah Rahil (00:55:44):

With even at broad.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:55:45):

Yes. I had a call today with the, the people on the TikTok product team. And they both work from Facebook and they told me that the way the measurement model works is even with exclusions on a certain percentage of people that you're targeting are going to be existing customers. Cuz what it does, it has to create like a looklike within that adset to get some data and then to go model out other people within that adset so I truly don't believe that there's people though. No

Rabah Rahil (00:56:10):

Can't you measure frequency

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:56:13):

How what's after frequency and you can see

Rabah Rahil (00:56:14):

That's how many times people see they add. So even if these are retargeting or not like you, it by definition, if you're retargeting, your frequency's gonna be higher because you can only, you can only reach one person, but you can trust them multiple times. If you're retargeting in your prospecting, your frequency's gonna be really high. So there's an easy way to know if you're not showing ads to new people or not is by looking at your frequency. If your frequency's low new people are seeing your ads, if your frequency's high, not new people are senior ads, cuz your reach is gonna be low and your impressions are

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:56:44):

No it's different. Cuz I'm not saying that you're showing an ad to, to people multiple times in prospecting, I was answering ASHA's question, which is, do you think it's possible, at least as I'm understanding the question, do you think it's possible to show your ad to somebody for the first time who's heard of your brand in other places? Yes. And, and that's what I was saying, which is yes.

Rabah Rahil (00:57:04):

For sure. Yeah.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:57:05):

That that's all I was saying. So I don't think it's a truly cold prospect that you're always going after.

Rabah Rahil (00:57:10):

Yeah. But again, you can modulate that by frequency.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:57:13):

It depends on the brand. It depends on the level of organic too. For us, we don't have the type of organic presence that you have. Right. So top of the funnel is fully, fully cold. That's why like when we use influencers then it kind of helps and like that'll carry us a little bit. But when we don't have like that big influencer kind of pushing yeah. Then it's like, it's totally cold. You're totally relying on top of the funnel. That's when your cat kind of like suffers a little bit. But I totally, I agree with you in the sense of organic needs to be set up, but not a lot of people can get that set up from day one. Yeah. I hear you. Cody,

Rabah Rahil (00:57:48):

Cody, you have a pretty special setup up there. Guys. We gotta pull the, pull the plug on this almost. So we're almost push up to an hour. We had some heat the

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:57:55):

Or not

Rabah Rahil (00:57:55):

Can I, well, let's save, let's save it for the next one. Cuz the hour's kind of, uh, is this was your, this was your, your claim to

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:58:01):

Play. I saw, you know, this has been more heated than I, that I, that I expected. So I just thought maybe we get one thing we could agree upon.

Rabah Rahil (00:58:08):

Well, I agree that I love you guys and you're incredible. And you should come to Austin more. If not, I'm gonna come out to Jersey. We're actually building out a podcast studio. So if you guys come into Austin, we doing this. Oh that would be dope. We'll do an ad spend in person. But I, I, I love all your thoughts, Cody. I don't think you're wrong. And I, I think, and you

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:58:22):

That's back hard today though.

Rabah Rahil (00:58:24):

You said you were, you, you were the one that won this bar.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:58:27):

<laugh>

Rabah Rahil (00:58:28):

Um, Eddie, who guys, we love you. Thanks so much. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. We all love each other. This is all in good fun. Nobody's mad at each other. And Ash, you wanna say anything? People go buy some Avy bars. What? Some collagen, whatever you get.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:58:40):

I some Avy bars, protein bars are crack. There's fire. They're really good. So far. Um, Miller replacement bars. I gotta try. Um, yeah, I'll send you some and then, uh, some new stuff coming out. My paw Rangers, pet supplements for cats and dogs. Um, stay tuned for that. And then, uh, third project coming June. Um, we'll keep you all posted on that. So stay tuned. Twitter,

Rabah Rahil (00:59:02):

Stealth project over there, national you stud Cody, where do people buy makeup? Where do people follow you? How do we do this thing?

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:59:09):

So first of all, I promise I'm not this big of a Dick all the time. I totally promise. No,

Rabah Rahil (00:59:13):

We love you. We love you. Get

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:59:15):

Here. Get, I hope this episode Jersey, I felt like it east coast. I think what you should do is you should, uh, you should, um, go to our website and then I think you should, uh, just, you know, leave it, go follow us on Facebook and then go search for us later. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (00:59:32):

Do not buy the first day. If you wanna piss Cody off, do not the first

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:59:38):

Though. <laugh> you gonna expect more from you? Oh man. Agree.

Rabah Rahil (00:59:48):

Wrap it up. You also have a newsletter. Talk about your newsletter. It's fantastic.

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (00:59:52):

I have a newsletter. I hear it's pretty good. Um, it is very good. And just follow it. Uh, I don't have a fancy URL or anything, so it's go to my Twitter profile at Cody bluff and check out the newsletter. You can unsubscribe time if you think it sucks.

Rabah Rahil (01:00:04):

<laugh> awesome, boys. I really enjoyed this. This is a nice, the other one was super, super calm. So we, you know, we had, we had to hit both ends of the spectrum. Maybe we'll hit the middle next time, but

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (01:00:12):

You're getting comfortable now

Rabah Rahil (01:00:13):

We're getting yeah. So what it is. Yeah,

Cody Plofker / Ash Melwani (01:00:15):

The middle

Rabah Rahil (01:00:16):

And, and thing is a Friday, right on Friday. Everybody's a little just afraid from the week ready to kind of show some teeth. And so, yeah, but anyways, I love the conversation guys. Thank you so much for the thoughtful, eloquent responses and answers. Um, if you do wanna get more involved with triple well, it's try triple well.com. We're on the Twitters at triple well, and then we also have a newsletter. Well, mail goes out every Tuesday, Thursday at triple well on the Twitters is where you can subscribe to that. Ash. Cody, you guys are incredible. We're still, we're still working on you too. If you guys have a cool sign off, hit us up with it. Thanks again. We are gonna be publishing these on Mondays. So the first one will go up Monday and then this one we will be coming after the next Monday. And so again, thank you for your time fellas. We'll see you soon. Have a wonderful weekend.

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