Podcast

Shaun Brandt with a Different Take on Conversion Rate Optimization

September 12, 2022

56:17

Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale

Guests

Shaun Brandt
Odditor in Chief Oddit

Episode Description

Shaun gives us a product designer's perspective on CRO. After building up an extremely successful product design shop that spanned the globe from Paris to NYC to Miami; he pivoted into media buying and CRO. He wanted to learn the biz fast, so he would pay $5k/mo contractors, even though the clients only paid $3k/mo. His journey is incredible and once again, I am convinced every single Canadian is an incredible human. #ROAS

Notes & Links

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-Follow Oddit - https://twitter.com/itsOddit

Transcription

Rabah Rahil (00:07):

3, 2 1. Hello folks. Welcome back to the last podcast at 2021, we have a screamer for you today. We have the biggest brain and conversion rate optimization on the show today. The conversion Crusader himself, Sean Brant. Welcome to the show. <laugh>

Shaun Brandt  (00:25):

I appreciate that intro Rama. Uh, thanks for having me.

Rabah Rahil (00:29):

Yeah. So as you can see, I'm in a little different setup, the green screen's not in yet, so it's not perfectly crisp, but it will be soon. I'm obsessed with this new little app. We were just talking about called mm-hmm <affirmative>, but I am still in Austin. We are building out a team in Austin. So please apply people. Um, where is this podcast find you, Sean?

Shaun Brandt  (00:44):

I am currently in Edmonton, Alberta, which I don't think anyone listening will envy. It is minus 32 Celsius here today. You do not want to be where I am. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (00:54):

Oh man. That's that's barbecue weather in Canada though, right? Yeah.

Shaun Brandt  (00:57):

That's no, yeah, we're still, I can't do. We're still barbecue. Don't worry about that.

Rabah Rahil (01:01):

<laugh> um, how long you've been in Canada, your whole life? Yeah,

Shaun Brandt  (01:06):

I, I grew up here. I was born here. Um, I went to university here after university. I, I, uh, I moved a few different places. I've lived in, uh, I lived in Paris for a little bit. I've lived in Miami for three years and uh, I spent a lot of time in, in New York and a few other places with my, with my work. So mostly in Evanton and in Alberta, but a little bit everywhere.

Rabah Rahil (01:28):

What's been your favorite Paris? That's pretty cool.

Shaun Brandt  (01:30):

Paris was super fun. I don't know if I could live there forever, but what a, what an amazing city. I think Miami, um, I went in pretty skeptical. Just, you know, the right, the, the optics of Miami traditionally, but I think, uh, I really loved it. The, the food scene and the culture and yeah, we, I fell in love with Miami. I mean, I, my work was what took me there. My work is what took me out, but I, yeah, I, I, I could totally move back. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (01:56):

I love it. If you would live anywhere else, is that where it would be?

Shaun Brandt  (02:00):

It would probably be there or, uh, or New York. I love New York.

Rabah Rahil (02:04):

Yeah. Any, any spots in specific like Brooklyn or Midtown Manhattan? Anything like that or? Yeah,

Shaun Brandt  (02:09):

I I'm a Manhattan guy. I, I mean, Brooklyn's great, but, uh, but yeah, Manhattan for sure.

Rabah Rahil (02:14):

Yeah. I, I love New York city man, but I can't like the energy there is so palpable. It's fantastic, but it consumes me. Yeah. Like I love living in the fire, but I can't like stay in the fire too long, cuz if not, I just like, I'll just keep running until I pass out. But, uh, it's, it's one of my favorite cities as well. It's beautiful. Yes. Um, okay, cool. So tell me, so you have two big kind of gigs right now, right? So you're co-founder of Colin, which is a phenomenal paid media agency, full stack. And then you also have, um, a little bit of a DTC darling on Twitter with audit. First of all, fantastic name. Thank you. But tell us a little bit about kind of those two and how, how did you end up there?

Shaun Brandt  (02:52):

I mean, it was kind of a roundabout way, uh, that both of them came about, um, I, in 2011, my, one of my partners and I, we started a, a, a product design agency called Brice. And, uh, that's kind of what took me to Miami in Paris and New York. Um, we ended up opening offices across, uh, the us and, and, and one in Europe. And, uh, we just kind of built up, uh, a reputation of, of really dialing in the details for a lot of the brands we worked with. And, uh, you know, we kind of got tired of it. Uh, just got tired of the big agency life, trying to just basically constantly up customers, retainers and, and, uh, it just kind of came kind of became a sales game and, and less of a creative endeavor. Um, and we really got into it to, to, to help brands and to, and to actually design things.

Shaun Brandt  (03:43):

And we weren't really doing that anymore. So we actually exited that, um, a few years ago and, and started private consulting. And, um, at the end of last year, pretty much exactly this time last year, Chris McCullin, uh, he reached out to us and, and, uh, he said, you know, he, I'm doing really well in the performance space. And I, I want to scale, I know you guys know how to build an agency and you've, you've had success there. Do you wanna partner on this? And, uh, you know, as you know, Chris is, is, is just brilliant in that space. So, yeah. Um, I'm a firm believer in betting on the people behind the brand. So, um, we saw that opening and we took it. And, um, I think working with Chris has been a complete eye opener for us. I think the way that audit came about was seeing all these brands within that agency spending so much money on add dollars.

Shaun Brandt  (04:33):

And then when they get to the site, they're like, okay, well, yeah, we haven't spent any money here. So like, let's just, they're just focused on ads, ads, ads, ads. And I, I just couldn't wrap my head around it as someone coming from the product design background and building these products. Like when I say products, I mean the digital side. So building the site, building that experience, I couldn't wrap my head around a brand. You know, I've had arguments with customers about $5,000 website. I've had customers arguments about a hundred thousand dollars website, but there's always that pushback of like, I don't wanna spend money on my site and then they're going and spending 150 a month on ad dollars on Facebook. But when they get to the site, the experience is shit. And I, I, I just can't, I couldn't wrap my head around to that.

Shaun Brandt  (05:15):

So anyways, yeah, all of our customers were doing this, not all of our customers doing exactly that, but they're spending a lot of money and being very intentional with their ad dollars and, and they're hiring great people like Chris, but when they get to the site, um, you know, they don't have bad experiences, but they're not investing there as much as they should be. So that's kind of where audit came in. We started doing CRO audits for our cooling customers and it worked out really well. Um, and I think we just kind of saw a little niche there of so many CRO brands out there are so focused on data and testing and, you know, all the traditional metrics of CRO, which there's nothing wrong with that. But our background was not in that at, at all our background, isn't just building great brand experiences.

Shaun Brandt  (06:00):

And that's kind of where the audit brand came in is to say, okay, well, we're not traditional CRO. And we probably don't explain that well enough on the site, but from a traditional CRO perspective, it's much more about data and testing and all of these different metrics that the brands are constantly looking at. And we've take a more brand first approach of saying, do these types of experiences like elements in your experience to build trust with customers. And that will get them buying more and more often it's like I said, it's not like, Hey, flip this switch and the numbers go up the next day type of mentality, but you know, the customers that are believing in our strategy and buying it, it's working. Um, so I mean, I, I'm not sure, uh, we don't have a benchmark against other CRO agencies, but people seem to like what we're doing and, and it seems to be working for them. So it's been super exciting. It's been a, you know, that all has happened. Like I said, in the last 11 months. So it's been kind of a whirlwind, uh, year of growth for both companies cooling has, has grown, I think, four or five X since then, and, and audit substantially as well. So it's been super fun, but obviously very overwhelming as well.

Rabah Rahil (07:13):

Yeah. I mean, I love that. And for people out there that aren't hip to it, uh, CRO just stands for conversion rate optimization, sorry for throwing all the jargon around for you people. Yeah.

Shaun Brandt  (07:21):

Sorry. I hate when people do that, I go do it. <laugh>,

Rabah Rahil (07:24):

I'm just, I do the exact same thing. Um, I forgot you were deep in the product game. And so, uh, full disclosure, I've had, uh, some clients do a, uh, audit and they actually came back. These are some pretty high level people, um, and came back and said that was literally the best audit, um, they've ever done. And what I really liked about your guys' service as well now is you, you kind of have a developer on staff or not on staff, but you can kind of hand people off cuz that's one of the other things I think a lot of CRO agencies or just people that give strategy advice in general is I think improvements come in two packages, right? There's the strategy level and there's the tactical level, but then you have to implement it. Yeah. And so, so many times people are like, this strategy looks great.

Rabah Rahil (08:06):

These tactics look great. Now what? Yeah. And so it was just so helpful to not have to go find a developer and just kind of go through that. But that aside the audits that you guys did were kind of to your point, it was so refreshing to see a, not that I wanna say, non quantitative, cuz that sounds a bit pejorative, but a abstracting away from the numbers and realizing there's a fucking human on the other side, actually buying stuff and trying to figure out like, do I tell my wife, am I gonna brag to my wife about this? Or am I gonna regret this purchase? Like what happens on this screen? What is the, the vibe here? Like what is going on? How important is this touchpoint? If it is important. Um, one of my favorite, um, things that you guys did was the, um, blank, add the cart page.

Rabah Rahil (08:51):

Like it's fantastic. Like if you don't have anything in your cart and you have all these things, like why waste all these things? And so for me it was just so incredible to see, and now it all kind of comes together because it felt like a product designer doing the audit because there was so many things like cognitive load, like all these things that like you'll never hear like CRO people talk about all your, all you're talking about to your point is just qu, right? Yeah. I mean, they're just like numbers in numbers out. How do we push? How do we get a half percent here? How do we get a half percent there? And what I found you guys were looking for the step changes you were looking for like, Hey, like this might be a big win and it's gonna be a big win forever because you should change this flow or this like the way you're doing it.

Rabah Rahil (09:32):

And just to round off this little ranty monologue, I saw it all the time as well, where you would have this huge budget for a fire hose of demand. And then you have this like garden hose of a cash register. Yeah. <laugh> you just have all this beautiful demand you're paid is doing great. You're crushing all this and you're getting people to the site and then they're like the fucking weekend gift where you they're just looking around like, how the hell do I buy stuff? Or like, where is this? Why don't I see bundles? And um, so I, I love that. And it makes so much sense now intertwining your, uh, product. So jumping off on the product stuff, what was some of your favorite ones that you guys worked with or worked on? Is there any, any cool stories

Shaun Brandt  (10:11):

There? Oh man, I was so jaded by the end. Uh <laugh> I don't know if any of them were favorites, but, but no, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll skip all the big, the big ones, cuz those were the ones that I hated. But um, I, I think, uh, you know, we worked with some really fun ones. I worked with a, like a stem education, uh, place that was, was super fun and we got to actually like, we got to kind of figure out, okay, well what does this look like from a brand perspective, but also how does it, how does it live inside of the spaces for stem education and how does that translate to a digital product? And we kind of got to work in like the full kind of scope of like every touch point, which I think is really interesting. And you know, like pulling it back to that empty cart thing a lot, like a lot of when we talk to people that get an audit report or even people that are looking to get an audit report and they're like, okay, well how many people are gonna buy or add to cart or shop from the empty cart?

Shaun Brandt  (11:07):

And it's like, that's not the point at all the point exactly. The point is that when they got there or they landed on, it's like a 4 0 4, are, do you wanna serve them an empty page? Or do you wanna give them a brand experience? It's not about, they're not gonna add the card from there or, or necessarily even increase conversion it's that it feels like this cohesive, like, you know, it's like walking through Ikea, you're just like, it's annoying as fuck, but like you just feel so catered to like you're being taken through this journey. And I think that's super important for building brand trust. Um, so I think that there was a lot of clients that we worked with in Versace where we got to kind of flex different creative muscles and, and really touch on different elements in the brand experience, whether it was an actual retail bridging to digital or, or vice versa. Um, so I, a lot of those ones were the funnest, the ones where you're actually dealing with multiple verticals within their journey, not just a digital product.

Rabah Rahil (12:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. So you have this kind of like polymathic set of like conversion skills, product skills, kind of copy skills, understanding conversion processes. How did you gain all this mastery and then kind of cause how old are you your early thirties? Like twenties,

Shaun Brandt  (12:20):

35, 35 twenties. I appreciate that twenties.

Rabah Rahil (12:23):

Yeah, you look good. I'm I'm 36 over here. There we go. The, the old man train <laugh>. Uh, but what are kind of some tips for people that are, you know, a little bit more junior on their journey, trying to skill up to the level that you have. Is there any like frameworks, any readings, essays follows, anything like that?

Shaun Brandt  (12:41):

Oh man. I, I had a really unique start to getting into this space. Um, so I, I, I think that story might be helpful, but <laugh> well, see, I mean, I, I came into it. I, I got a degree in, in commerce and uh, you know, like most people with a degree I came out and kind of was like, wow. I mean, that taught me, don't get me wrong. It was great. But in terms of what it taught me, it wasn't necessarily how to start a business or how to start an agency. Um, but how I came into actually doing a product design agency is I knew I liked design. I knew what things should look like. I knew, um, you know, I kind of had the eye for it, but I didn't actually know how to do any of it. I, I didn't know how to draw.

Shaun Brandt  (13:20):

I didn't know how to use Adobe. I didn't know any of that stuff. So what I actually did is I would go advertise to get clients and then I would hire someone else that was really talented to do all the work. So when I started out, I, uh, I would bring on like a $3,000 brand client and I would hire someone for five and I just kept incurring debt and hiring all these amazing designers from New York to execute my work. Um, I wasn't like hiding behind it. I told the client that's what was happening. Sure. But what it did is once we put a brand to that as an agency, we kind of just became synonymous with quality. And along that journey of six months, I taught myself everything I needed to know in design. I taught myself Adobe and sketch like all these things.

Shaun Brandt  (14:05):

So cool. And I mean, that would be my best piece of advice is just, it it's like there's no right path. There's no right answer. Just, and, and, and you can pretty much teach yourself anything you need to know online, like Twitter D TOC is the perfect example of that. Like, you can learn anything you wanna learn. All you need to do is put in the time and effort. I mean, it's, it it's literally anything. So I mean that, how we approached that when we started out with hiring other people, I mean, looking back, it was a total gamble. Like we had no money and, and we were losing money on every client just to build a reputation, but it, it worked out in the end and, and it kind of evolved into, you know, what ended up being a, you know, a, a pretty massive product design agency with offices in, in, in, in Paris, New York, Miami, Calgary, Toronto. So like it, you know, and that's from two guys that had, that's a, that's a design agency that I had never designed before when I started it. Um, so I, I think that's an, just a kind of proof that you really don't even need to know what you're doing when you start. Um, you can kind of fake it till you make it. I mean, there's nothing really more faking it, like hiring someone else to do the work <laugh>. So I think, uh,

Shaun Brandt  (15:19):

I don't know. I, I hope that was useful.

Rabah Rahil (15:21):

No, absolutely. I mean, I'm kind of in that same vein of, um, I don't really care too much about pedigree. Um, I'm more of that hacker ethic of like, what have you built? Yeah. What, what can you do? What have you kind of exposed yourself to in the past? And to your other point, I've always said that like these kind of last five to seven years is the best time to be exceptional and the worst time to be average. Yeah. Because if you do have the drive, like, dude, YouTube is insane. And then to your point, like, if you can just get any semblance of competency, you can pretty much sell to people. You might not be closing, you know, 10, $20,000 retainers, but like, and you can also, I'm also a very big stoic. And so there's a STO belief of kind of like a radius of control.

Rabah Rahil (16:08):

And so if stuff's outside of your control, fuck it, don't worry about it. But as paradoxically, as you start to control the things in your radius of control, your radius of control actually expands. And so there's this kind of this paradoxical concept and too long didn't read is action breeds action. And I, I love that, man. I think that, I don't know if I arbitrage at a negative <laugh>, that's a pretty ballsy move. That's a, I thought you were taking some sauce off of it, but you're actually essentially paying to learn. Uh, that's, that's a pretty sassy move. I don't know if I've taken that path.

Shaun Brandt  (16:40):

I wouldn't recommend it either.

Rabah Rahil (16:42):

That's

Shaun Brandt  (16:42):

I would never do it again. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (16:44):

That's uh, but it is cool to understand that, um, in the long run that really was essentially marketing spend, right? Where, like you were brand building with this arbitrage, and even though you're you were losing two K um, this set you up to really kind of just clean up in the long term, once people have realized that brand was established and quite frankly, like there's levels to this game and the good people are expensive and quite frankly, you wanna learn from the best people. And so there, there's definitely some wisdom in that where you were hiring the killers to come in and you were getting, you know, you're, the other thing is being green. You don't have to unlearn things. Yeah. And so since you were learning from all the crushers at the beginning, um, maybe it doesn't sound that as crazy, but yeah. Eating, eating a couple K closing a client and be like, yes, I just netted negative two K <laugh>. Yeah. Can't be the most exciting moment, but yeah. To each their own,

Shaun Brandt  (17:36):

No. And to your point, it kind of felt like we're investing in our own education. Right. We're learning through their processes. How are they delivering things? Like we didn't have any experience in any of that. Right. Proposals, all that stuff. So you're kind of paying these people that are best in their, in their class to show you how they do it, which, you know, I'm obviously in that space now and I, I want people to be paid for their time. So even if they didn't produce anything, it's kind of, we're kind of just paying these people to can, you know, consult for us. Really.

Rabah Rahil (18:05):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was just gonna say that that's

Shaun Brandt  (18:08):

Fantastic. I think, and I think another, another, um, kind of example of that is audit really. I mean, it's it, when we first came into this, we had so many customers or people and we talked about it being like, well, okay, so how much access do you need to analytics and all that stuff. And I'm like, look guys, I'm sorry. I, I don't want disappoint you and don't buy one, if you don't believe this, but we don't look at your data. Like we just don't. And I think that was a lesson for me of just like, especially in this space where there's so much noise, you don't always have to, you know, do what everyone else is doing. Like I, to be totally Frank, when we started audit, we had never, ever tested our ideas on actual conversion. Yeah. Like we're making a lot of assumptions.

Shaun Brandt  (18:49):

We made a lot of assumptions and the assumptions were simple. If you can build more trust with a customer, when they're on your site, they'll buy more or at least they'll buy more often or at least they'll talk about it and someone else will come it's all the long game. Right. And I think if, you know, I would say if you're a, a reseller from Amazon that wants to launch and kill a brand within a year, do not buy an audit because it's, it's not short term CRO for sure. But I think, you know, I, we, we took hold of our ideas and our, and, and our, I guess, mentality for CRO. And we, we just went with it. There was no testing. There was, it was just like, let's hit the ground running, let's get some clients let's if it doesn't work, we offer money back. So let's not screw anybody testing these things out. Yep. But, you know, we, we just kind of went for it and, uh, you know, thank thankfully it worked. But, um, I think that mentality of just like, like you said, like there's so much access to information and, and opportunity out there. Like there's no reason to like, just go for it. Um, and, and test these things out as, as obviously as much as you can, but yeah.

Rabah Rahil (19:53):

Yeah. That's fantastic. Okay. One more question. And then we'll wrap up, uh, the first segment, what's one weird skill you have, oh, God. Or one talent that people would be like, that's fucking weird.

Shaun Brandt  (20:06):

What is a weird talent that I have? I have like

Rabah Rahil (20:11):

Pipes.

Shaun Brandt  (20:11):

No, I don't play bagpipes. I, I used to play guitar. I, I haven't played in so long. Um, I used to, uh, I used to do a lot of water sports, believe it or not when, uh, oh, cool. When I was younger. Um, which is an odd, odd thing to do in Canada. Cause it's really not that long of a water sports season. <laugh> but yeah, I, I used to, I used to be able to do like, you know, flips and stuff and do all the, all the

Rabah Rahil (20:35):

Stuff. So wakeboards slalom,

Shaun Brandt  (20:36):

Ski, wake wakeboard,

Rabah Rahil (20:37):

Dual skis, wakeboard. Okay. Yeah. Those are the fancy boats I like.

Shaun Brandt  (20:41):

Yeah. Except I was never in the fancy boat. I was in like, <laugh> the, the outboard fishing boat doing the same shit.

Rabah Rahil (20:47):

<laugh> the barge with just the bigger motor and you're just kinda flooring it. Yeah.

Shaun Brandt  (20:53):

There's a, there's a, there's a keg on the front and like seven people and that's yeah. There's nothing

Rabah Rahil (20:59):

Cool about it. Yeah. Oh, I love it. All right. Awesome. You made it through the first segment, unscathed dropping knowledge bombs everywhere. Sean. Well done. Perfect. Okay, cool. So let's get into the value add segment. All right. So I want to jump in firstly, kind of, we, we touched on this a little bit, but in terms of like, when you're thinking of either an audit or bringing on somebody at Culin, what's that kind of process and strategy, like, like what's going through your head there, are there metrics you're looking at? Is it, um, like a temperament fit? Is it, do they have processes or kind of take us through that either through audits lens or, uh, Collins lens?

Shaun Brandt  (21:36):

Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I have much more experience with this on the, from the product design background. Cause we had a lot

Rabah Rahil (21:42):

Of staff. Oh, that's even better. Yeah. We,

Shaun Brandt  (21:44):

We had a lot of staff, um, there versus audits, just my partners and I, but um, I mean from the, just on the, on the cool in front and on the audit front, I think someone said this to me, um, last week, which I think is really effective. And, and they were talking about actually hiring someone for email strategy, but they said what they were looking for was someone that could balance the taste of a brand marketer and the conversion mentality of a performance marketer mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think that's probably whether it's in the audit space or the, or the performance marketing space, that's really what you want. And that's a lot of what audit is talking about when we talk CRO it's like they're looking at from both lenses, it's not one or the other and it's not, one's better or one's work.

Shaun Brandt  (22:27):

Like that's not it at all. It's just having kind of that full vision of taking a perspective of the brand, the customer, you know, all the different potential outcomes and, and, and seeing it holistically versus just like, what's the data say on Facebook like that. And I think that's in any rule in this space, it's, it's really critical to find people like that. That aren't just not to say that, you know, people that are really talented in one, um, vertical aren't good hires cuz they are in, in a lot of cases. But I prefer finding those people that, um, are looking at things more holistically. I find that they learn faster. I find that they're more self-sufficient they're not taking as much, you know, they're like I said, they're learning on YouTube or they're they're, they're so used to learning that way that they're not constantly asking questions, which especially when you're hiring people.

Shaun Brandt  (23:14):

Um, that's my biggest fear constantly. And that's why I got out of, um, the agency is just, you spend more time managing people than you do actually managing your business. And that's super, obviously super stressful, but it's also like, how are you supposed to grow your business? Like the whole point of starting a business was to, you know, build something for, you know, yourself and the people that you're connecting with. And I think there's nothing wrong with managing people. It's just in, in my position. It's, it's not, for me, I'd rather work with people that somewhat manage themselves for the most part.

Rabah Rahil (23:46):

Yeah. I, I absolutely love that. And I I'm with you, the one challenge there is those, usually those kind of, um, people that have the skillset of, I, I love that, uh, taste slash uh, conversion mindset where, um, and that was kind of Steve Jobs's thesis where a lot of the magic lived at the confluence of the arts and technologies, right? Like, yeah. At that intersection is really where things come off because you have this kind of liberal arts holistic view with the knock on effects, but then you also have this technician of like, okay, cool. You want build a unicorn, but where do we find the horn? Where do we find the head where do like, and so it it's this marriage of really, to me, innovation and dreaming, but also practicality and pragmatism and uh, and the, the ability to have that dream, but also be able to execute upon it is really the show in my opinion, and finding those people pay, 'em keep, 'em do whatever you can because they're kind of like singer songwriters where, uh, they can write the song and sing it, man.

Rabah Rahil (24:46):

Cuz one of the things that I absolutely underestimated becoming CMO is that managerial perspective of like, yeah, unless you're bringing in kind of VP senior level people where you can kind of basically just brain dump on him and be like, okay, go get it Sean. And you're like, all right. And you kind of fucking figure it out. But when you bring in more junior people, I mean, it's not a knock on them, but they have no idea what they're doing. Like they need some sort of leadership. And I found that that was something I really need to work on. Um, because it is really valuable to be able to skill those people up. But at the same time, to your point, I'm in a position that I can do that, but a lot of people need to be working on their business, not working in their business. Yeah. And I, I see it all the time where you hit these plateaus where there's a certain point where you just can't scale anymore because you just don't have the bandwidth. Yeah. And then you start to have degradations across other, other sectors in your business and then, you know, all that fancy reputation that you built. That's what, the weird thing about reputation so hard to get so easy to lose.

Shaun Brandt  (25:47):

Yeah. No, and I, I, to your point, like I think it is, it is an, an important role and it, and someone has to do it. I think just there's you have to be very conscious of, of who's doing it. And when, because like it's, it's happening literally right now at audit, like we're, we're scaling and, and we're trying to add additional services. We're starting, we're talking, um, about launching a, a, an entirely community portion of it where we're, um, love it, doing the audit that way. And, and it's finding the right people that are on board for so many facets of it, because especially with my background, I'm looking at it like, okay, well, are you seeing the things I'm seeing? Or are you just reading the reports we've given and regurgitating it back to customers in a new report? Yeah. Cause that's not what I want. I, I don't want you to learn my perspective and then go tell CU new customers how to, how to place a button on their site. That's not what I want at all. Um, I want someone that goes in and understands that brand journey, analyzes it and gives them a perspective that's unique to them. And I think finding people like that, it it's just so it's so hard. It's it's

Rabah Rahil (26:53):

Yeah. It's so it's so hard. And not only that, um, like we've found a few people and a lot of times they're doing what they want to do. <laugh> no. Yeah. And so it's like, here's a bunch of money. They're like, well, I'm making fine money. I don't have a boss. Like I'm running my own little agency, I'm running four or five clients and I'm printing money. Yeah. Like, why would I want to change this? And you're like, fair point. All right. Yeah. And so, yeah, I I've found that, um, those, those kind of people with those skill sets have really, um, become incredibly either expensive or quite frankly, just unattainable because, um, the economics needed, like it's not even an economics thing. It's a lifestyle thing where they're, they're happy where they're at and they, you know, they don't want to bring in all these other weird pressures. They don't know about these. They already have their own processes. Um, I love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah. And I think, okay,

Shaun Brandt  (27:40):

Sorry, go

Rabah Rahil (27:41):

Ahead. No, go ahead.

Shaun Brandt  (27:42):

No, I was just gonna say I, the other side of it, as I think with, with Coolen, um, what we're seeing is people are obviously expensive and they're a lot of them are in roles that they already love. But when you have leadership like Chris, where, you know, he's a little more vocal he's out there and people really do believe in his ability to increase, you know, the sales for these brands and change these brands and these customers. Um, we're seeing a lot of, of people interested in working there just simply because they wanna believe in that vision and they, they really trust in Chris. So I think that's one of the other things of, of in this new day and age of hiring and people working from home and all this stuff. I think having leadership that communicates and is very vocal and upfront and open, um, like Chris is, is, is just really critical to drawing, um, good talent to your company.

Rabah Rahil (28:34):

Oh man, I couldn't agree more. So there's something, um, in economics called hygiene theory or, uh, pricing theory, hygiene theory is kind of like the lay term for it. But anyways, the too long didn't read there is satisfaction and dissatisfaction actually don't exist on the same spectrum. They're actually two different spectrums. And so what that means is there's certain hygiene factors at a job, like a cool office compensation. Benny's all these things, but if you're not really happy. So like, for example, like if purpose drives you, like you're saying, like having a purpose or having a great leader are these things like that. Those actually make you more satisfied in your job, but getting more money, getting a better office, all these PTO, all these things are just making you less dissatisfied. And so it, it's a really good point you make there because, um, I think in the nineties and early odds, you could just throw money at people and it worked. Yeah. Um, where now there's like, um, I don't wanna say like an elevation and consciousness, but I think there's a lot, especially when you get into a more, you know, talented, uh, place on your life journey, you command, you know, more leverage. And so I think these people are seeing that and they're, they're starting to, you know, obviously hit the base economic requirements, but, um, they are leveraging, you know, more purpose or more kind of things that they value to make them more satisfied with their job versus just printing more money.

Shaun Brandt  (29:52):

Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (29:56):

Uh, I love it. I love it. Okay. Tell me why actually this is jumping. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen? Um, in some CRO stuff like in terms of audits, like what are some big, big, like, no-nos that you're like, wow, I can't believe people are doing this

Shaun Brandt  (30:11):

<laugh> I won't, I won't call it anyone directly. But I think the, the, um, the, the, probably the biggest thing that we see that we're constantly, it's like, it's like a broken record. Every time, every time I'm writing these things is everyone kind of thinks they have this unique way to position and market their product. That's different than everyone else. And they almost forget to just explain what the hell they make like here. Like there's all the jargon and whatever. And then you get like four scrolls down and it's like, here's what I make. And it's like, man, no one fucking cares. They, they didn't get there. You already lo you lost them in the first second. And I think it, it, the biggest learnings that we've we've given to customers is just being crystal, crystal clear, right off the hop. Like, don't talk about your Christmas sale.

Shaun Brandt  (30:58):

Don't like, tell them what you do. Tell them why you do it and give them a, a button to go buy it. If they, if they don't go there, great. Give them all the rest of the bullshit and the marketing jar. But yep. In that first kind of glimpse of your brand where someone's, you know, a lot of the people coming in your homepage or whatever are just discovering you. Um, I think it's just so crucial, uh, to communicate that way. And then the other thing that we always, um, tell our customers is don't tell users what you don't do. So, you know, like, I, I, I was just having a conversation with a company and it said, you know, this, this certain product doesn't go on your roof. And it's like, okay, well, that's great. I love that it doesn't have to go on my roof, but why don't you just tell me where the fuck it goes?

Shaun Brandt  (31:45):

Like now you're leaving it to the customer to go discover what more about your product. They can learn. Just tell me exactly where it goes. Don't tell me where it doesn't go. So I think, um, a lot of marketers come in and they write copy for, um, brands and, and they try and get creative and, and unique ways of positioning things. And, and a lot of the times it just doesn't work. Um, at least from a conversion perspective, it doesn't work. It sounds nice. And it, and it looks nice on a billboard, but it doesn't always work.

Rabah Rahil (32:13):

Yeah. I mean, from, uh, my experience, that's exactly what I've dealt with as well, where, um, there's that kind of kiss method. Right. Keep it simple, stupid. Yeah. And the more I stray away or bells and whistles, and then you have this gorgeous PAX and you have, um, you know, sometimes it can just be like, uh, I'm a big kind of believer in, you have to know somebody like somebody trust somebody, um, before you transact with them. And so as long as you're ticking those, those boxes, man, I think so. I, I came and I'm sure you can totally empathize coming from the product world, but I came from the design world as well. And I used to basically just worship at the altar of like, quote unquote, like beautiful design. Yeah. And what you find is like, beautiful design is a lot of times like high fashion where it definitely is influential and it trickles down, but like most people wanna wear like blue jeans or a t-shirt or something like that.

Rabah Rahil (33:04):

And you need to get that to them versus having this like high fluent, like to your point of just, just putting all this wrapping around, like, Hey, do you want this? Do you trust us? Do you like us buy it? Yeah. Here's how you do it. And, and I think that has really been lost on a lot. Um, and then kind of touching on your other point. Um, and I kind of believe this in sales as well, where I always always stay away from any sort of negation or negative, not even because it is ambiguous, but also now you're in the mindset of scarcity and no, versus in the mindset of abundance and yes. Yeah. And so like, it's a totally different mindset and every time you have any of those kind of negations or you push people into those meta models of no, or don't, um, I just get really kind of nervous about priming them for saying no, versus giving them a story of why they should say yes.

Shaun Brandt  (33:54):

Yeah, no, I, it it's, it's such a, a huge and simple thing. Like if you're saying it doesn't do something, you already know what it does do. So why, like it's such a simple change to make. Right.

Rabah Rahil (34:06):

Yeah. I love that. Um, as people go more and more mobile first, are you seeing any type of, uh, transition into thinking of the website being consumed mobile first? Are you still seeing kind of a hybrid approach or what are you seeing there and kind of, what are your recommendations for people? So, um, to give you an example, so I had, uh, actually the client you did the audit for, they were actually like a 70, 30 split. I was really, um, in terms of mobile to desktop. Yeah. Which was actually really eye open to me where, um, predominantly I was cuz I'm interacting with it on a desktop. So you usually have your own biases. Right. And so it was just this really big eye opener where everything on desktop was actually a fantastic experience, but then you move to mobile, not so fantastic.

Shaun Brandt  (34:51):

Yeah. I, I mean, we're seeing, we take info, uh, in our onboarding for, for mobile desktop data. Our average is about 80 mobile. Um, and that's wow. Yeah. 80 mobile. I mean it, because we're dealing with direct to consumer brands, there's so many that they're built online. So they're built from Facebook ads and Instagram ads. So a lot of that traffic that they're foundations are built on is mobile and, you know, innately. Um, but I think, yeah, like a, for me, we always audited mobile first, regardless because the success of that brand, no matter what the currently is, is going to be in mobile, that's just how things are going. Um, but I think one of the more interesting changes that happened this year that I don't, I don't personally think enough people are paying attention to is, you know, within the iPhone or iOS ecosystem, safari moving their search bar to the bottom.

Shaun Brandt  (35:47):

I don't think people understand that that's effectively going to change that. Now your website nav like fast forward 24 months, every website nav is going to be on the bottom of your site and how that, you know, when you think of how a user comes to a page and scrolls, when it's at the top, okay, well, it just goes off screen and I move past it. If it's already at the bottom, what happens? Does it stay there? Am I scrolling behind it? Is it, is it gone and disappears? So there's a lot to account for there. And to be honest, we aren't commenting on it a ton in audits because a lot of our customers just, I don't think they're gonna make that big of a change. So we're just kind of not, not recommending it. But I think over the next year, two years, you're gonna see a full transition to website navigations, like the actual navigation panel for each brand being on the bottom. Um, and I mean, it should be you, it, it's such a simple thing. Like unless people start holding their phones like this, there's no reason for it to be at the top. Right. And you're constantly reaching. It's frustrating. Like it sounds so dumb that reaching an extra inch causes the conversion to go down, but it does like it, it just does the easier the buttons are to reach the easier it is to access the faster you do it. The more often you do it.

Rabah Rahil (37:02):

Yeah. I totally agree more. And that's something actually I've been sleeping on as well where, um, like that thumb travel is a real thing. And uh, especially like I got baby hands. So it's like when I'm on a bigger phone on my iPhone, it's like, you're, you're contorting your hand just to touch that thing. There's, there's just a lot going on there to your point, versus having them in a much more reachable spot at the bottom. You also do some really cool stuff in terms of menu truncation and kind of simplifying your menu. But the, the other broader point too, is like, if Apple's betting on it, it's pretty much not a fad. Like this is something that they've obviously tested and it works and people are using it and way happier with it. Um, so I think it is gonna be design language and kind of the new structure of mobile web as well, where you're gonna see either like persistent menus right above the, the URL bar or something like that.

Rabah Rahil (37:51):

So it's just much easier to get to that, cuz it's almost either top right. Or top left. Right? Yeah. And even top left worse cuz you're, you're going literally across the whole phone. And so, um, I love that. Yeah. It's what a fun little, I hated it at first, but then you're like to your point, you stop and think about, you're like, yeah, it makes so much sense because it's a artifact of the desktop. Yeah. Who gives a shit where it's out on a desktop, right. Because you have this fucking massive monitor. Like it doesn't matter. You're not touching it, but now you're, it should be changed. It's a, it's almost kind of building off of what we were talking about mobile first where yeah. Safari is now being built for a mobile first experience where before is built primarily for a desktop experience poured over to mobile.

Shaun Brandt  (38:30):

Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's how design has worked for so long is, is trends just come from piggybacking other trends and apple has been so good throughout, regardless of all their downfalls and right. They're so good at, you know, if you just look back at the different design queues that they've created, whether it's app icons or like everything, right. You go to the little details. Yeah. 99% of them, they become your everyday. Like you just take it for granted. It becomes what, what exists now and how people perceive things in, in the design space. So, and especially in interaction. So my guess is that that's not gonna be the 1% that doesn't go through cuz it's just such a no brainer. Like it's, it's one of the most blatant design trends. Like you said, where navigations were designed on top cuz on desktop, it doesn't matter and you're scrolling downward. So it made sense. And no one whenever they designed for mobile decide like, you know, no one ever challenged the fact that it shouldn't be there on mobile until apple did. And now it's, you know, it's, it's such a simple thing, but such a big thing.

Rabah Rahil (39:33):

It's a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. All right. My man, can you believe it? You made it to the rapid fire. Oh I know you're you're Canadian. So the, the Canadian in me, which is very little, but I love you guys up there. I'm gonna have to get a little rough with you. You know, this is, this is the rapid fire, but uh, put on your armor, maybe take a shot of syrup and uh, let's get going.

Shaun Brandt  (39:53):

All right. I'm ready.

Rabah Rahil (39:55):

Okay. Overrated or underrated the Edmond and Oilers

Shaun Brandt  (39:59):

Overrated.

Rabah Rahil (40:01):

Woo. Coming out with heat already. I like it. Uh, mobile first optimization, overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (40:07):

Underrated.

Rabah Rahil (40:09):

Ooh. I love it. Running an agency. Overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (40:13):

Extremely overrated.

Rabah Rahil (40:16):

<laugh> I love that. Um, Canada overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (40:21):

Underrated.

Rabah Rahil (40:23):

Ooh. Why?

Shaun Brandt  (40:25):

You know, I think people just look at, uh, as Canada as this kind of polite place, that's too cold and uh, it is, it is, it is, it is definitely those things. But I think, um, there there's a, there's a resiliency for people that can put through this kind of climate <laugh> and uh, I think you see that when it comes to, to business and creatives and um, yeah. I, I think the people here are just very, very hardworking and I think that's, and I speaking more from a work perspective, but I think hiring here is, is at least in my experience of working in the us and Europe, um, the talent is just much more focused and, and um, yeah. I just find them more genuine.

Rabah Rahil (41:11):

I love it. Um, bam, I've always wanted to go overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (41:17):

Uh, overrated.

Rabah Rahil (41:18):

Oh no. <laugh> well, oh the mountain lakes. Oh

Shaun Brandt  (41:22):

No, no, no. Don't get me wrong. It's it's stunning and it's very beautiful. And I'd recommend anyone that's coming to Canada or Alberta, I guess should, should probably see it. But as a, as a, as an Alberta, um, it's just one of those places. It's like anyone that lives in a city and there's a popular place you've been there you're 10 times in your life and you're like, yeah, I don't need to go again.

Rabah Rahil (41:41):

Yeah. I don't need anymore. All right. Fair enough. But it is great still on the list. Yeah. Yeah. Those, the photos looked incredible. Um, copywriting, overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (41:50):

Uh, I'm seeing it become more, more focused on, so it might be not as underrated anymore, but I find it to be underrated. I think it's, you know, I, there's so many interesting D TOC brands launching right now that are focusing more on copy than they are even the user experience or their template or their website or any of that shit. Um, I, for the longest time beard brand had an amazing homepage where it was literally just two sentences and a button. And I, I, I remember seeing it being like, God, I just wanna audit this thing. And then I spoke with Chris and he is like, man, their conversion skyrocket after I went up and I was like, oh, good thing, audit. Didn't do it. Cuz I would've ripped it apart. And it would've crashed, but I, you know, I think that it was just a random example that proves like the right copywriting in the right, you know, spot in the customer journey.

Shaun Brandt  (42:37):

Can Trump, all the other money you've spent, if it's just positioned properly and copy whether it's your ads, you know, the tagline once they get there or the heading once they get there, the way that your products are titled on the site, the way. Yeah. Like I, I actually just did a Twitter post this morning about like copywriting on buttons. Um, so many brands that we, we consult with, they, they just put shop now or start now or yeah. And it's just like, why, like you have to assume that they came to your site, they're there for half a second and they may have looked at nothing on the site except that button, it should say shop hats at the very least like whatever you sell shop where I'm go, where am I going? And I think, you know, that's not copywriting, but it is. I mean, it's, you have to be very intentional with every word. Um, I, I think it's super underrated. Sorry. Long-winded answer

Rabah Rahil (43:31):

<laugh> no, no, I love that. And, and my little, um, kind of guilty pleasure is really well written, um, like unsubscribed links where it's like you go up and then it pops up and like save money or no, I hate saving money and stuff. Just silly shit like that. I'm like, well play, well maybe I will subscribe now. Like well played. Um, okay. Going to uni overrated, underrated,

Shaun Brandt  (43:53):

Underrated. I, Ooh. Interest. I think there was, there was a lot in, uh, in university and that, I mean, I couldn't tell you one thing I learned in any class don't get me wrong. <laugh> but I, I, I think that I learned the skill sets of, you know, meeting deadlines all the different like just day to day as a business owner, as an entrepreneur. Um, I think a lot of the, the work ethic and the things that, that are taught to you in university that, you know, if you're successful in university, you, you come out with, um, I think they're, they're critical. And even just working with other people, whether it's like project based stuff or like, I think there's a ton of learnings there that said I could have got those same learnings getting an arts degree instead of a commerce degree, or it really had nothing to do with it being a business degree that got me into business. It was more just the, the overall education of, of that mentality. Not necessarily that topic, you know what I mean?

Rabah Rahil (44:51):

Yeah, absolutely love that. Um, favorite meal and why?

Shaun Brandt  (44:55):

Oh, my favorite meal, I, I really, really love pasta. Um, mm I, I, my wife is a, is what

Rabah Rahil (45:04):

Friend?

Shaun Brandt  (45:05):

My favorite is ketchup pep, which is just like just pepper and sounds

Rabah Rahil (45:09):

Bougie.

Shaun Brandt  (45:10):

No, it's not, it's just, <laugh>, it's just pepper and cheese, but it's, <laugh>, it's, it's just so delicious. My wife's such a good cook, so I'm, I'm, I'm very, um, lucky that I'm, I'm, I'm always eating good, but my, uh, part of the businesses that I've I've worked with locally in the Alberta area is, is a, is a, a group of Italian restaurants from a, from a chef here that I kind of got me into Italian food and, and pasta. So I've, I've just become infatuated with Italian food and, and simple pastas is it would be top of that list for sure.

Rabah Rahil (45:42):

Oh, I love it. Did you do any culinary exploration anywhere on Paris? That's supposed to be one of the, the better food scenes in the world, right?

Shaun Brandt  (45:49):

Yeah. So I, I mean, throughout the last decade, I've, I've done quite a few trips where we're just going to restaurants, you know, six, seven restaurants a day and that's the whole purpose of the trip. But I think in, in Paris, I had, I had a newborn and, and a, and a four year old. Um, so, you know, going around the, the subway stations with, uh, a stroller is always fun, but we did quite a bit, uh, of exploration. My wife's a, a Somalia, so we did a lot of wine and oh, wow. Wine tours and, and yeah. Went to reams and, and you know, where champagne is made and yeah, it was, it was amazing. It was great.

Rabah Rahil (46:22):

Oh, wow. How cool. That is funny. I love that Somalia. Wow. You picked a good one, huh? Yeah. <laugh> um, favorite

Shaun Brandt  (46:33):

Newsletter. This is gonna sound like a, a broken record based on Twitter lately, but it, it, it's definitely Sharma's um, yeah, I think that

Shaun Brandt  (46:42):

There's a few out there and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna name any cuz I don't like giving bad press, but I think there there's a few going back to copywriting that that are a little long and yeah. Um, you know, the, once you built up that brand trust, I, I think it's totally fine to give someone a novel in their email inbox, but I think Nick does a really good job of meeting in the middle of, of, he really does go through it line by line and, and just say, did this line give value yes or no cross out, or you go through that. And there's really not a ton of fluff it's it really is meat and potatoes and, and, and nothing but value. You're not like wasting minutes going through all the fluff, trying to find where the value is. It really is just kind of really packed full of it. And, and I really appreciate that in what he does. Like not all of it is necessarily relevant to me or stuff that I really care about, but his intention with the content in there I think is really dialed in and I, I would definitely recommend

Rabah Rahil (47:41):

Yeah, super strong logo of all time.

Shaun Brandt  (47:47):

Oh man, there's this weird refrigeration company in Alberta. That's just like, <laugh>, it's a,

Rabah Rahil (47:54):

You have to send it to me. It's amazing.

Shaun Brandt  (47:56):

It's amazing. You probably can't even find it online. They probably have like four employees in there from like 1960, but I drive by it all the time and I'm just like, oh man, whoever did that, I just wanna meet 'em. But I think, um, my favorite all times probably CN, rail. I don't know if you know what CN rail is, but it's like

Rabah Rahil (48:13):

Maybe

Shaun Brandt  (48:14):

Ish it's it's like the Canadian national railway and it's just, okay. It's just like a, a C in an end made of like a simple stroke that looks like a, a, a railroad track, I guess. It's just, it's just so simple and brilliant. Oh, I also, I love it. I also like have a secret infatuation with the, the Casper C. I just love that. It, no, not many people will notice. I don't even know if they have it anymore, but that C that was like the unrolled mattress. Um, I thought was just brilliant. Do they?

Rabah Rahil (48:41):

It was just so you, you like the little Easter egg logos, like the FedEx stuff and

Shaun Brandt  (48:45):

Yeah, I, yeah, I, I don't like literal. Like I don't like when comp, you know, it's like a ticketing company and the logo's a ticket. Like I hate that shit, but if it's, if, if there's there's intention there where, you know, if you look for it, you can find it. Or if you're like, I, I really love that stuff. Um, because they, a lot, in a lot of those cases, they haven't forgotten the main, um, thing, which is just keeping it simple and memorable. Right. Just like you're yeah. We're talking about with conversion, it's just like, does it, is it simple? Does it get to the point? And I, and I think most of the references I would give you would be very, very simple.

Rabah Rahil (49:20):

Yeah. I love that. I always find it, uh, small aggression here, though. Funny, when you see these huge corporate kind of big budgets, um, truncate down to this Uber simplified logo where you're just like, they probably paid half a million dollars for that. And basically the designer went in and like the Starbucks logo, for example, they just start deleting shit. Like, here you go. <laugh> yeah. 500 K please. You're like, and it looks great. Don't get me wrong. But it, I would've loved to have been on a fly on the wall there where it's like, uh, addition by reduction, which is not a horrible strategy. But again, when you're commanding those premiums in terms of price points, it's kind of, yeah. Uh, funny, like, so what did you do do exactly for half a million? Yeah. Um, that, okay. Oh, go ahead.

Shaun Brandt  (50:00):

Sorry. If I have 10 more seconds, I, it going back to like a little snippet of information than we're always talking about in audits is a lot of D TOC brands. They don't make their brand responsive. They only make their site responsive. So what I mean by that is when it scales down to mobile, whether it's a logo or their icons or whatever, it's okay to have second versions of it that are more like, if you had your tagline in the desktop version or on a billboard. Great. That doesn't mean you need to have it in your mobile device. Like have a mobile version. You used the moniker. Yeah. Like have a mobile version, make your, make your logo responsive. Just like a lot of these big corporations do for a lot less money. I'll do it in the audit for nothing. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (50:41):

Boom. Look at that. People break it, break it deals. Okay. Two more questions or actually three, I lied. Um, favorite way to spend your time.

Shaun Brandt  (50:49):

Favorite way to spend my time. Um, I don't read as much as I'd like to anymore, but my favorite thing recently is, uh, I I'm renovating a house and I put in a wood burning fireplace. So my favorite thing to do recently is, and cuz it's minus 30 or obviously has been making a fire and I've really become really great at it. And I, I didn't know, it was one of my favorite things until the last year, but, uh, there's something about having to take the time and effort and do it properly and like all these different things that go into something, you know, effectively so simple. But, um, there's, there's some sort of weird pleasure I take from heating my house with a fire. I, I don't know what it is, but uh, I don't know. I love it.

Rabah Rahil (51:33):

There's some primal link to that. Like when I, I like to do a lot of back country stuff and uh, or camping and what have you. And um, when you're allowed, we always, you know, spark up a fire and there's just something like, so relieving being out in the wilderness or to your point, like in your home. And you're like, I'm, self-sufficient, I'm just, I'm heating my like it's, it's this kind of this very independent feeling. I love that. Yeah. Okay. Last two. Uh, favorite follow on Twitter.

Shaun Brandt  (52:00):

Favorite follow on Twitter. I am personally new to Twitter in the last like year I've been off social media for like a decade. Um, nice.

Shaun Brandt  (52:10):

Who do I, I mean, I got all back on Twitter cuz of Chris. So I'm gonna say Chris there. I think he's always putting out good content and honestly, man, I'm gonna, I'm not saying this cuz this is a triple podcast. The triple well Twitter newsletter, every like I I've kind of seen triple well from right from the very start. And I think you guys have done a tremendous job of like just being present, being relevant, like, and, and talking about things that matter. Not just like fluff, like I talk about fluff content and that type of bullshit. I think a lot of what you're putting out there is really timely and relevant. So I, I appreciate your guys' stuff too.

Rabah Rahil (52:43):

Oh, mad love. Mad luck. Okay. Cool. Last question. If you got dinner with any three people dead or alive fictional non-fictional who would it be and why? And this is at one table. So all four of you will be there. You and then the three other people that you choose.

Shaun Brandt  (52:57):

Wow. Dead or alive

Rabah Rahil (53:01):

And fictional non-fictional. So if you like characters from a book or a movie or something like

Shaun Brandt  (53:04):

That, it would probably be my grandfather.

Rabah Rahil (53:07):

Love it.

Shaun Brandt  (53:08):

Um, Jerry Feld, is he passed now or he's passed? Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (53:12):

Okay.

Shaun Brandt  (53:12):

Yep. Uh, Jerry Seinfeld

Rabah Rahil (53:15):

Did a huge Seinfeld

Shaun Brandt  (53:16):

Band and uh, oh God, I don't even know who, who would the third be? Who's gonna round that out. Get the,

Rabah Rahil (53:24):

Probably be in there as some entrepreneur.

Shaun Brandt  (53:26):

Yeah. I mean, I feel like I know what Musk would be like and I don't wanna have dinner with him. Yeah. Um, <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (53:34):

Love it.

Shaun Brandt  (53:35):

I don't know. It would definitely, it would be some athlete. I just don't know who probably like a Tom Brady or like one of those athletes where I would just, I just kind of want to ask a bunch of questions, get inside their head, get the perspective of that. I think Tom, Tom Brady amazes me just everything about his, his sports journey saying

Rabah Rahil (53:51):

He he's. Yeah. It is really, even if you don't like him, you have to acknowledge he's the greatest fall time. Yeah. I mean, it's just the quantification of stats are just so incredible. Yeah. Wow man. Just like you Canadians, do I try to be rough and tumble with you during rapid fire and I come out with a smile and wanting to hang out with you more <laugh> you're you you're incredible. All right, Sean, we're wrapping up, uh, tell us how to get more involved with either Colin or audit or, uh, the stages yours, let us know.

Shaun Brandt  (54:20):

Yeah. I mean, I, I, uh, I invite you to go to the site, audit.co if you're, if you're looking for any conversion help, or even just like we say on the site, a fresh set of eyes. Um, we don't just work with D C brands. We work with a ton of different industries from airlines to, you know, we have a ton of people reach out to us from different, different verticals and industries. Um, there's a option on the site to try it for free, which we just send you a, uh, what we call a quick run, which is just kind of very similar to some of the Twitter content you see kind of a before and after of a section of your site. Um, and then on the cool in front, I believe we have opened back up the, the, the gates and, and we're onboarding new customers. So, um, if you're looking for any performance marketing help, Chris is, uh, Chris is, um, amazing. Um, I'd highly recommend top tier, even just reaching out and, and having the team go through and auditing your existing. I'd say audit with a U D I T not O D D I T, having the team audit your, uh, your marketing, um, just to kind of see our approach, I, I think is, is gonna be super beneficial. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (55:25):

Fantastic. And we'll, we'll put all those links in the show notes as well. Um, that's it folks, this is the last one of the year. Sean. Thanks so much episode 13 in the books. If you do want to try, uh, and get involved with triple well more, you can go to try triple well.com. Um, as Sean alluded to, we have a fabulous newsletter that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday called whale mail. Um, you can subscribe right on our Twitter profile at tri whale and that's all we got folks have a fantastic 2020, two's gonna be a big big year. Um, go get some audits or get Chris to start printing you some money over at colon and Sean again. Thanks for the time brother. Appreciate

Shaun Brandt  (56:00):

It. Yeah. Thanks man. I appreciate it.

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