How To Scale TikTok Ads Profitably In 2022

January 13, 2023


Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale


Cody Plofker
Director of E-Commerce Jones Road Beauty
Ash Melwani
Co-Founder & CMO of MyObvi

Episode Description

Welcome to Adspend, a podcast brought to you by Triple Whale! Join our fantastic hosts Rabah Rahil, Ash Melwani, and Cody Plofker as they dive into all things media buying and eCommerce marketing.#Adspend

Notes & Links

Subscribe to Whale Mail for exclusive industry insights and in-depth marketing breakdowns: https://www.getrevue.co/profile/tripl...

- Follow Ash on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ashvinmelwani
- Follow Cody on Twitter - https://twitter.com/codyplof
- Follow Rabah on Twitter - https://twitter.com/rabahrahil


Ash Melwani (00:00:00):

I fully knew that I'm aware of that I just wanted to see. Right. And prove the concept that, okay, you really do need organic TikTok. Like you need to film on your phone. You need to use a TikTok editor. You need to use the robot, voice voiceovers, the, the native text, everything, everything that that editor has to offer use it.

Rabah Rahil (00:00:29):

Folks were back. Cody's on the, the brink of death, but he's here committed. His aura ring said he could do it. We even pushed the podcast for him. He even bounced. We even had a replacement for him and, and Cody big leagued him. He texted me, said he wants to be on the show today. And so Matt loved to our replacement, who we will have on, uh, later this summer, but he got bumped. So the three Migos are back. I'm here in Austin with my boys, Ash and Cody fellows. How, how goes it

Ash Melwani (00:00:57):

Feeling good? Cody? How about you? <laugh>

Cody Plofker (00:00:59):

Good, man. I'm I'm doing well. Uh, my voice might not be all there. My energy might not be there. I'm on day. I don't know if this is four or five of COVID and honestly it kicked my ass, but I'm just happy to be here.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:11):

We're happy to have you back's feeling better. You look sensational in the, uh, the Jones road swag. Do you guys have t-shirts we need t-shirts we're doing a t-shirt wall at the, uh, office here. You gotta send, send me a cool bright

Ash Melwani (00:01:23):


Cody Plofker (00:01:23):

Those are six. They're not as, as our, uh, as our hoodies, but I'll send you a tea or do hoodies count for there.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:29):

Well, yeah, hoodies count, but we only put, uh, t-shirts on the wall. Hoodies are two, uh, hard to Mount. Like we have like, t-shirt frames that we're putting on there, but, and it's actually really cool. We're doing NFC chips. Um, and so the NFC chip will be on the, in the t-shirt. So you can put your phone up to the t-shirt and it'll pop up the store's website.

Ash Melwani (00:01:48):


Rabah Rahil (00:01:49):

Big brain moves here in Austin. When you guys come out for the whales, um, we'll, we'll have, I'll show you around the office and stuff, or maybe we'll bring you out earlier for Austin, but that's not here nor there. What we do have to talk to you about is two TikTok experts. Ash is finally getting some spend going and Cody has really

Cody Plofker (00:02:04):


Rabah Rahil (00:02:05):

Gurus. Let's go

Ash Melwani (00:02:06):


Rabah Rahil (00:02:07):

And that's why we're not product people. You know, we're marketers. So we're not, we're not the best of the best, but at least, at least we're here seeing

Cody Plofker (00:02:13):

We, we founded our product. We

Rabah Rahil (00:02:15):

Failed, you see the fortune cookie. Oh, it's so cool.

Cody Plofker (00:02:17):

I feel like we should, should we explain? We should explain some of these. I

Rabah Rahil (00:02:20):

Feel like, okay. A little bit. Don't cause we're me and you are gonna get grumpy and we can't start the podcast grumpy, but, but set the stage.

Cody Plofker (00:02:29):

Well, so the first thing that happened this week is Ashton and I got called gurus for the first time. There was, there was some dude, I don't even know who he is, he to me, and I'm not trying to hate it all. But he looks like a wannabe guru and was like, I don't know who like who all of the cause he do post screenshot

Rabah Rahil (00:02:43):

And he,

Cody Plofker (00:02:44):

No, they dude post screenshots. And he is like, he's like, you know, come follow me. Like, if you wanna learn how to do, do like eight figures and I'll show you how to do it too. And like me and Ash never say that, like I have never once promised to, to help that I can help anybody do eight figures, even seven figures, Ash, should I just share what works for us? And it's just, here's what works for us. Here's what I'm learning. Right? And like, yes, it's nice to maybe sell some courses if we wanna do that in the future or do some consulting, but really it's just, we're just trying to share, excuse me, and help what's working for us. So Ash, Ashley, I don't know about you. I feel like you took offense to that. Probably a little bit more than I did.

Ash Melwani (00:03:21):

I did. Cause it was like, <laugh> the guy that he was comparing us to. Right. I mean, I, I don't even know if I want bring it up, but like he was comparing us to some pretty big Gus that have like, he has his bag, they've done their thing and they've kind of left, right? Like, hold on.

Cody Plofker (00:03:42):

Esther's not a guru though. Like not, I don't know. Like to me, GU guru is a, is a negative thing, right? Like, is that to you?

Ash Melwani (00:03:48):

Yeah, no, I depend. I mean, well here's the thing, right? Like there this, so if we're talking about Esther, right? He came like he had his like free courses. He had his paid courses. Like he done, he has done a lot for the industry. Right. Russ, but this guy had an issue with like us being the now people like, I don't wanna say like, we're the now people, but like we're, we're very active on Twitter, right? Ezra's definitely not. And like, he's not putting out value as much as we are right now. And this guy took offense to that and it's like, well, you guys should respect the OGs. And it's like, okay, well it's not on you to do that. It's on them to push their own stuff. And that's what bothered me. Cause you just wasn't getting that. And I was just like, all right, well, you don't have to follow us. You don't have to listen to us. You can go pay for your course, if you want to. All our shit's free.

Cody Plofker (00:04:40):

Yeah. I have, I have more respect than like for Ezra than like anyone, cuz I have learned so much from him. He also has like, like the pretty much the best reputation, like as a human being that you can have in this industry. And like so many big players look up to him and, and he's amazing. I was literally even just messaging him today, but like a he's sold a good amount of see that name. Like he's, I'm just saying he's a good dude guy. He, he has sold a good amount of his company. Like he's out. Like he could care less about me and Ash and that like people,

Ash Melwani (00:05:11):

He probably didn't even know that conversation was even happening.

Cody Plofker (00:05:13):

No, this

Rabah Rahil (00:05:14):

Dude made his bag,

Cody Plofker (00:05:16):

Not at all. And like, and also it's like, I can also respect Ezra and like have learned time from him. But I don't have to say in every post, like, oh this is inspired by Esra. Like this is inspired by him. I'm like, I think that's what the dude wanted. You know?

Ash Melwani (00:05:29):


Rabah Rahil (00:05:30):

I dunno. It was a bit of the, the haters are gonna hate, but I don't know. I think gurus were at one point a admirable kind of like term, but now I think it's a bit of a pejorative where uh, people are

Ash Melwani (00:05:43):

Everyone's self trained, grew now. Like there's so many ads that are like, let's get five X row ads. Like Hey

Rabah Rahil (00:05:51):

And I, I think too, man, dude, most of us here are capitalists. Like if you have information and you wanna sell information and that information gets people further down their path faster than it. Wouldn't, there's no shame in that. So I mean, it's on you to do your due diligence to not get hoodwinked. And quite frankly, there's so much out there now where it's like, there are fantastic, like Foxwell is slack group is fantastic actually. Um, and Facebook groups that I pay for are trash. Me and Ash were just talking about this offline. We're like Facebook groups are dead dude. Like, I mean it's really paid slack groups. And then honestly, there's just so many people building in public. And quite frankly, like if people are real, like you just message 'em and like almost all these people will hit you back. Like there people aren't and if they don't, then you start to get into the kind of weird status of like, oh, okay, there's a little bit of H story stuff going on. But again, like it's on you man. Like it's your money and you can vote with your wallet. But I don't know. I, I kind of took offense for you guys and why am mad? I guru what happened there? What's it get the guru status? I did get the Nick Sharma follow. I did get the Sharma

Cody Plofker (00:06:55):

Follow. We were mad. We were at good RO. He was mad. He's not white. You

Rabah Rahil (00:06:58):

See there's a

Ash Melwani (00:06:59):


Rabah Rahil (00:07:00):

Grass is always green. You're on the other side. But,

Ash Melwani (00:07:02):

But it was cool to see a lot of people, uh, showing support though. So shout out to everyone that, you know, definitely stood out for us. And yeah,

Cody Plofker (00:07:10):

I don't get the, I don't get the anti course backlash cause like, yes, there's a lot of gurus that are selling courses and like they've never ran a brand they're they're scamming people. Their shit sucks. But like I have learned so much from courses I've spent, you know, five figures, like good five figures on courses and there's no way I'd be where I am without that. So

Ash Melwani (00:07:30):

Like you need the fundamentals, you need the fundamentals to get started and then you learn by doing and that's, that's just how everything goes. Right. There's only so much you can get done by like going through a textbook. Right.

Rabah Rahil (00:07:44):

I love that. And honestly, quite frankly, like a lot of times when I was on my come up, the course purchase wasn't necessarily for the content. It was for the access to the, the person. And so like now you're in the group and you can talk to them and like, there's just an easier way where you cuz I had questions that I couldn't get answered that were more nuanced that now I'm in the group and you may, it's, it's kind of like the equivalent of going to university. Like, unless you're gonna get some like either one you're an Ivy league or two it's some actual science degree where there's like a literal, like I went to school for economics, which is considered an arts, but if you're going to school for a lawyer doctor, something like that, that's very tangible outside of that dude. A lot of the, the value in, uh, university is, is the networking that you're gonna build.

Rabah Rahil (00:08:27):

There is the people that you get access to is the, like you can get fast track to jobs and all these things. It's not the actual academia. And so I'm with you Cody. I don't know. I don't know why people should on, so I mean, I get it where like you don't want to get hood winked, yada yada yada one, put it on a credit card, get that charge back if it's trash <laugh>. Um, and, and two just do your, do your own diligence and like, it's really easy to identify if something's kind of scammy or not just toss it out there. There's so much flux and free flow of information now that, um, I don't know. I think people are, are real about it. So,

Ash Melwani (00:08:58):

Um, I mean there's, there's that concept of like providing value first and upfront and then asking for like someone's credit card leader, right? Yeah. So like when you see these random ads on like your feed of people, you have never heard of, it just seems scamming. Right. But if like if one day, you know, Cody wants to put out a course where I wanna put out a course, it's like we've given back to the community. I mean, in my opinion, I think we've given a lot back to the community for us to like now have something a little bit more premium. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Cody Plofker (00:09:30):

And we're also doing it. That's the other thing we're actually not, we're not just teaching it. We're actually achieving success, doing the thing as well. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (00:09:37):

Well, and I think people also forget like, dude, it, I think there's two kind of stages in your life. There's, uh, I have more time than money stage and then I have more money than time stage. And when you reach that second stage curation is really time consuming. So if I can just pay somebody for all the awesomeness that Ash or Cody has been talking about, and it's in this easy to consume course that I can then do within a weekend versus having to find his tweets, having to find the YouTube video, having to do dude it's, it's there's value in that curation. And so exactly. And so if you have more money than time, I'm happy to give somebody money so that then I can actually make more money from the things that I internalize versus having to Hawk down every YouTube video. Now that's not to be said when I there's certain point in time where I had more time than money.

Rabah Rahil (00:10:27):

And I was absolutely doing that where I was searching every single YouTube channel. I was finding weird videos on vio your just all the way deep into weird Google searches, using super weird operators to find these really weird niche things. But if you have the money for it, you have less time, it's gonna help you get down that path. So I don't know, I I'm just a big value for value guy. I think that, um, and value manifests in different ways and curation and saving your time is one way that value can manifest for it's like, well, the information's already out there. Yeah, it is. But it's not a YouTube playlist or something. I have to go find these, all these things to pull together. And that took me six hours when I could have just bought the course done that. And then in six hours I'm skilled up. So anyways, I'm kind of ranting here, but I, I got you. Guys' backs

Ash Melwani (00:11:11):

Fair. Absolutely.

Cody Plofker (00:11:11):

What are we talking about? You guys wanna talk about talk today?

Rabah Rahil (00:11:15):

Yeah. You wanna get into it? I think both angles. The, the paid and the organic.

Cody Plofker (00:11:20):

Yeah. I, I think that works Ash. You, you posted something let's I'll let you kick it off like you posted. So you're kind of seeing some success. Can you just talk us through that?

Ash Melwani (00:11:29):

Yeah. Well, first off I have to give you a little bit of a shout out because you were the one that gave us the opportunity to actually get to run ads,

Cody Plofker (00:11:40):

Your shit.

Ash Melwani (00:11:41):

Uh, um, so I mean, Cody basically hooked us up with, you know, an account manager. Um, if you are having problems, you know, getting ads

Cody Plofker (00:11:50):

Set don't email me, don't DM me. Don't

Ash Melwani (00:11:53):

Don't even Cody

Cody Plofker (00:11:54):

Don't buy the course,

Ash Melwani (00:11:55):

But, but the way to do it is to get a managed account, um, you know, reach out toy if you can get somebody to help with that. Um, but if you are facing a lot of rejections, that is the way to do it

Cody Plofker (00:12:07):

And that'll be cuz you are in, in health and like supplements, it's kind of like

Ash Melwani (00:12:11):

A health and supplements. Yeah. Like we had, you know, claims like weight loss and things like that. Um, so you know, when we were running ads maybe like four or five months ago, we would run for like 24 hours and they'd get shut down. But like within those 24 hours they would do really well. And it was like very frustrating because Facebook sucked and like we couldn't get this to scale longer than 24 hours. So thank you Cody. Um, again, get a managed account. That's the best way to get around all of these issues. Um, because they literally tell you what to remove from your landing page, from your ad to get it approved. Um,

Cody Plofker (00:12:47):

Do you have to get that approved by a person? Like when you launch a creative, do you have to send it

Ash Melwani (00:12:51):

To them first? Yeah. Yeah. So we send it to them for, I mean we can launch without doing that, but if we don't wanna run into issues, we get it preapproved. Um, and then we're good to go. Like, like for example, two days ago we launched a bunch of new creatives and our landing page that was already preapproved got rejected. Just, I guess it got flagged automatically sent an email to the rep within 24 hours. It was back on and we're running. So you'll have those issues if you're in these niches, you know, health, wellness supplements. Um, but having that managed account is super important. So see if you can try and get one. Um, yeah,

Cody Plofker (00:13:24):

But so what's working for you. Like what have you tested what's working for you?

Ash Melwani (00:13:27):

Absolutely. What's yeah. So what's not working was, this is crazy. I, I tweeted about this about about a month ago. Right. And um, I think you gave me the suggestion, see if I can kind of build our account in public. Right. So we, we took some of our assets that we were running on Facebook. Right. These are a little bit more polished, like, you know, edited videos that I, you know, inherently thought that they probably wouldn't work. Um, but I wanted to test them anyways. Right. Cause that was the only thing that we had to run. Um, and they really sucked, like it was like we spent like maybe 500, like seven 50, I'm talking like 0.2%, click through rate $7 CPCs. Like it was just not, it was a hot mess. And I was just like here, Twitter, check out the videos that we're using.

Ash Melwani (00:14:17):

And I got shit on like, <laugh>, it was like, you guys need to be, you know, creating organic TikTok, this and that. And I knew that I fully knew that I'm aware of that. I just wanted to see. Right. And prove the concept that, okay, you really do need organic TikTok. Like you need to film on your phone, you need to use the TikTok editor. You need to use the robot voice voiceovers, the, the native text, everything, everything that that editor has to offer use it. Okay. Um, so round two. Okay. We were getting, um, dollar $2 50 CPCs, right. We basically filmed, um, a day in the life of, you know, one of the girls filmed a day in the life. Like here's my morning routine. I wake up, you know, wash my face, take my smoothie with the collagen protein. It's good for this, this and this carry other day. Right. That video had like, I think 1.5% click through rate, uh, $1 CPC. So like, like so much better. Right. So much, so much

Cody Plofker (00:15:13):

Traffic, 2016 traffic.

Ash Melwani (00:15:16):

Yeah. It was, it was insane. Um, and what I saw was on day one, really good traffic. Right. Um, for really low conversion rates. So I said, okay, let me run one more day. I think our CPA for that day was like $110 out of a $500, um, budget. Right. So we got like 4, 5, 5 conversions. Right. Let's just call it, um, let's call it a hundred dollars CPA for day one. Yeah. Day two, we saw $50 CPAs and we're like, okay, this is within our KPIs. This is great. We now have 10 conversions on this budget. The ad is starting to pick up. What I noticed is that the engagement on the ad was picking up. We saw shares increase, which was a good sign because obviously people are like probably sharing it with their friends. Like, Hey, we gotta check this out or commenting questions about the product in which we were answering right away. And you know, lights were coming in and we were getting followers on the account, which was sick. Right. So not only are you getting purchases, you're getting shares, which is the organic side of it. And you're growing your account, which also affects the organic side of it. Right then day three, we had $20 CPAs. Disgusting. I have not seen those CPAs in the longest time.

Cody Plofker (00:16:25):

Turn that up.

Ash Melwani (00:16:26):

Right. So now I would say, let it run for at least three days. Cause you'll never know. Right. Like if by day three it probably starts to pick up. And then I was, I think I tweeted about this and everyone said, okay, well day three day four is where it really could either do really well after that or just crash and burn. Right. So yeah.

Cody Plofker (00:16:44):

What did you say?

Ash Melwani (00:16:45):

Day four? Uh, day four, we saw a little bit like of an increased $30 GPA and then it went to 50 then 60 and now we're hovering. We're hovering around this 50. Okay. And that was for the last seven to eight days, day nine day 10. I'm seeing it increase a lot because we only had that one ad. Right. So there is that. Oh,

Cody Plofker (00:17:08):

You're you're what are you spending the day behind that one? Ad

Ash Melwani (00:17:11):

It was 500.

Cody Plofker (00:17:13):

Yeah. Oh, behind and behind that one.

Ash Melwani (00:17:15):

Creative. Yeah. So, and, and I, and I knew a lot of people were saying like, okay, by day seven, you're probably gonna have to swap out creative. So I said, okay, well this was our test to see if the organic TikTok will work. Now let's Palm out creative. So all week, last week and this week, I think we must have pumped out at least 12 TikTok that we're gonna test this week at like, we're gonna, we're going, you know, bump the budget. Like I just started running 'em today. We're testing four of them today, a thousand dollars budget. And they're like, not performing that bad. We have an $80 CPA on day one. Let's see how tomorrow goes. Let's see how day three goes and just repeat the process. Right. Um, similar to what I was talking about last, last podcast, which is have your testing campaign, right. Have the different angles. Like we have it, we have, um, a whole notion of the different angles and hooks, right. Hooks on

Cody Plofker (00:18:06):

That. We have just a back

Ash Melwani (00:18:08):

Idea, a hundred percent like you have to get, and we're going broad only, like I'm not even targeting interests or any audiences. I'm just going broad because we're using the ad to do the targeting. Right. We have, I mean, shout out to some of these guys on TikTok. I mean, uh, I mean thought TikTok on Twitter that we're putting out like hundred hooks to test and this and that. And it's like insane. So we literally took all the ones that applied to us and you know, it's like, if you deal with X problem, right, if you deal with hair loss or wrinkles, you need to check this out. Right. So now we're doing all these different angles. And what we're doing is we've created one TikTok that we, that, that format that works and all we're doing is changing the first three seconds to the different angles.

Ash Melwani (00:18:51):

So we'll have one video, uh, split into, uh, duplicated into four videos with four different angles. And we're just testing that out now. So it's like, you're basically, you only need to make one video, but like you're the beginning of it. The first three seconds could all be different to different hooks and angles. And you can literally have like an infinite amount of videos and many hooks and angles that you have to test. And I think that's gonna be our, our go to right now. So next podcast, I'll definitely update you on how this worked, but I think that might be the way to go about it. Um,

Cody Plofker (00:19:24):

So let's talk, I have a few questions about like accounts. Cause I feel like we, we will talk about creative, but I can definitely share like what, what, what we have worked, what has worked for us? What are you doing? So you're going broad. You going all one adset one campaign.

Ash Melwani (00:19:37):

Yeah. So for the testing, I did, uh, broad, uh, one adset. Um, I did females only in 25 plus. Okay. Um, four tops. So those four are currently all different styles just so that we can understand which style works for sure. Um, then as we get the idea of, okay, well maybe, uh, a recipe might do better than a routine, then we'll go. And probably the next step is to take that video, chop out the first three seconds and just replace it with a bunch of different stuff, like different folks or different angles, and then run that, um, to see which angles work and then just scale the winner from there. And just,

Cody Plofker (00:20:17):

I mean, that's important. Any platform is like, I think sometimes people just test these micro changes and it's like ch test concepts and angles on a very big picture, you know, like completely different things. So the more different, the better, and then fine tune things. Once you kind of see what's working

Ash Melwani (00:20:34):

Exactly. Yeah. Casper wide net and then, you know, figure out like, you know, figure out the style that works. You know, it's like, what we talked about last time is we tested like four different five different landing page types. Then you find your winner right. Then create iterations. And if it is a recipe video, then we'll just make different recipes and change the first three seconds. And then you have like an infinite amount of video ideas that you can create. And, you know, I mean the girls love making the TikTok, so it's like, I'm not even complaining. They're not even complaining about, you know, having to film and this and that.

Cody Plofker (00:21:05):

And then, um, are you, you're just throwing new ones into that one campaign, that one ad asset you got, right?

Ash Melwani (00:21:13):

Yeah. So I'm, I'm testing. I did

Cody Plofker (00:21:15):

That for a while.

Ash Melwani (00:21:16):

Yeah. Like,

Ash Melwani (00:21:17):

So you tell me, you tell me what the, what the best structure is now, because right now I'm still on that testing phase. Right. So right now, if I'm testing at a thousand a day, um, I got four ads. Now let's just say out of those four, two are the winners. Right. I think next week, what I would do is probably test four more. And if I get two more winners, I have four winners that I would probably toss to a scale campaign. Or do you think I should just be bumping the budget on these campaigns that are working currently?

Cody Plofker (00:21:46):

Yeah. Good point. I mean, I think, I think it kind of depends. It's like when you have everybody wants and again, same, it's really the same principles on Facebook, but like everybody wants to be like, oh, I have a test campaign. You know, like that's the best practice. Yes. But it depends on budget. So it, if you only have, you know, a thousand bucks a day to spend on a platform, you really gotta consolidate that. And TikTok because of the attribution, not as good there, you actually need more consolidation than on Facebook. So I think for now you're totally good. The reasons why you would wanna spend it out would be a few things a to guarantee you're getting spend right on, on some new creatives. Mm-hmm <affirmative> cause sometimes if you got some winners, TikTok will just be, you know, keeping the spend behind those and you might not spend on the other ones. So that would be another one as your budget grows. Also, if you wanna make sure you're not interrupting those evergreen campaigns, you have some stuff that's hidden and working, you just wanna keep 'em running. That would be a point. So I would say probably at a thousand bucks a day, you don't have to, I think I probably added a second one in a, maybe like 1500 or 2000 a day.

Ash Melwani (00:22:46):

So, so, okay. So right now, if I have the testing campaign running at like with four ads, two of them are probably doing well. Right? Yeah. What would, what would your next steps be to be like, okay, well I have four more creatives, you know, in the bank, but these are working. How do I do I, do I go for like scale? Or do I go for more testing? What would you, what would be your next step? If, if my tests were working,

Cody Plofker (00:23:10):

You, are you at, if we did like a stoplight system in terms of your performance, you know, your CPAs against your target CPAs, are you at like a red light? Yellow, right. Yellow light or green light.

Ash Melwani (00:23:20):

Got it. So I, so let's, let's just say the testing is doing really well. Right. You're probably at green light. Right. Um, so you have time to now go in on these before you need to, I guess, test more or do you do both at the same time? Right. So I don't, I don't know. At least we're doing both at the same

Cody Plofker (00:23:38):

Time. Always, always be testing. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I'm not saying don't test, I'm not saying like, if you only have one budget don't test, it just means, means that your test campaign and your scale campaign is the same. It just means I would, I would bump the budget

Ash Melwani (00:23:50):

On, well, let's say there's, let's just say there's infinite budget, right? Like things are going well, when you throw more money at it, what would you do?

Cody Plofker (00:23:57):

Uh, you're at a thousand. I mean, if that's going well and you're green, I'd bump that 20% every few days. And I would, if that's going pretty well, I would. And you had infinite budget, then I'd launch the test one at a thousand bucks a day. So now you're spending, you know, 1500 to 2000 on the stuff that you know is working, but you gotta make sure now that you're spending more, you're refreshing creative a lot quicker. So now you got four per week that you're bringing into this test one at a thousand a day. And if something hits, you're just bringing it to that. Other one, if you launch four, you should be launch bringing one of those tests of that four into the evergreen one.

Ash Melwani (00:24:32):

Got it. So right now my texting campaign, if they're doing well, that would become my scale campaign at one point, right? Yeah. If that's the one that's doing well right now. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So to clarify, I have one campaign right now, which is my testing one, if it's doing well, I'm gonna bump the budget 20% every couple days. Um, let's say, you know, we get it to, let's just say we get it to 2000 a day. Right. Relatively quickly. I also need to have creative testing on the side. Um, and you would say if I find a winner from that testing, toss it into the other campaign, um, would you turn off that, that new testing and replace it with entirely a new test or if it's working, what would you do?

Cody Plofker (00:25:15):

Uh, so I would say like, I'll just go back and say, let's say, you're only like, Hey, I can only get the bandwidth to turn out one new creative a week. I'd probably keep it in that evergreen one. But because I know that you're gonna turn 'em out and you have a really good system for doing this. Normally I would say, yeah, like launch launch four in the testing one, let's say you get again, you launch four, let's say two, not very good one. Okay. But need some iterations. And one's a winner. I would, I would take that winner right. Of, of those launch it into evergreen. So hopefully you can kind of just continue that one running at the same CPAs are better kill those other two, but then take that one. You're like, oh, this recipe, angle crushed it, you know, to go off that recipe angle again, but let's get three new hooks on this one and let's try one with robot voice.

Cody Plofker (00:25:58):

Let's try one with a voiceover, let's try one with some different hook, you know? And then I would just, I would have that be your iteration to test the following week. But yeah, I think that would be your goal is, you know, three to four a week. You're trying to find just one new creative a week or, or one, two creatives every other week, whatever it is to just replenish that evergreen one. Yeah. Cause that'll die. I mean, I think you'll get to get, to get two weeks outta something on TikTok. Like you're, you're doing good. We I'd say we got longer, but our, our stuff hit a wall. I mean, we had to really pull back our spend and it's still really down.

Ash Melwani (00:26:31):

Well, so take us through that. Just so that like people understand how important it is to create a refresh and create test, um, you know, take us through what you saw cause you, I know scaled pretty quickly. Right? You, you guys went viral. Um, you know, I know that you were using like those as spark ads and then other ads too. So take us through what you saw, um, on, on the, on that side.

Cody Plofker (00:26:55):


Rabah Rahil (00:26:55):

I can also verify that he scaled as well. I've seen his numbers. He went, he went up into the right baby. He

Cody Plofker (00:27:00):

Wasn't, we went, we got up to BK day. I was trying to get that to 10 K day. Yeah, you weren't playing, um, very, very, very profitably at the time, but what happened was, I, I, you know, you've probably seen on Twitter like, oh, TikTok creatives die out super quickly. Yeah. And then I've also talked to some people who are like, no, we've seen some really long lasting results. So we had some stuff in our account previously, but again on like two K day of spend that was like lasting for months. So I, I was kind of getting a little confident, a little too confident behind it. So we scaled, we again, we're getting like one a week, you know, and we were fortunately because we were running these as organic and they had a lot of traction there. I wasn't really creating a ton of iterations, but I kind of knew they worked and I was just throw 'em into at our budget. But those definitely hit some fatigue really quickly. Uh, and our clickthrough race just went down 20% every week, you know, to the point where we just, we were probably like running them at break even, you know, and we just didn't have any new creative. So we just had,

Ash Melwani (00:27:57):

Are you using any processes to monitor that, like the clickthrough race, the CPCs, or you just using like triple oil or the ads manager to kinda

Cody Plofker (00:28:07):

Just keep an eye? Yeah, I mean, triple right, triple and then a ads manager, just this, you know, obviously triple looking at RO. So they, they just, I don't know what you have on your account, but they, they just came out with like auto auto advanced matching, which is enabling seven day. I don't, I think it's a seven day view, click, sorry. Seven day click one day view. Yeah. Um, previously like a few months ago it was just on a one day click. So do you know if you have that in your account or are you on one day?

Ash Melwani (00:28:33):

I think it's still one day. Okay.

Cody Plofker (00:28:36):

Off the track. Oh, cool. Yeah. So I think then it's even more important to use triple will cuz it's like you can scale an accountant, like a 0.3 0.4, right? It's almost like whatever your GA numbers compared to your Facebook numbers are, is kind of like what your triple would be. So if or your, your TikTok. So if you're at like a 0.4, like a 0.4 for us in TikTok platform was like a 1.8

Ash Melwani (00:29:02):

You're saying is under reporting most of the time.

Cody Plofker (00:29:05):

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, so there's a few things, first of all, it's and again, like we can debate this night. Like we can debate this until like the end on Facebook, but on TikTok, like there's no debate about this. Like TikTok is a top of funnel. The majority of it is going to be view through, you know, if you look at your post purchase surveys. Um, so it it's first of all, just, I think I'm not the most technical guy in the world, but I, I, from what I've heard from their team, the attribution is just not there. They're not nearly as sophisticated as Facebook is. So that's why they're, you know, they used to be single session. Then they went to one day now they're seven day, but there's gotta be obviously a huge drop off from that. But also what happens is a lot of it is cross device.

Cody Plofker (00:29:44):

Oh, I see this, you know, I, I only, um, oh, I see this, but I don't really know it. Uh, I I'm shopping and I go later, but, and then I go check out Avi later on and I go Google branded search. Like when we went viral on TikTok, we, we, that one day we did about, we used to do about 2% of our revenue from TikTok. We did like 30% that day. Uh, and we kind of that actually 60%, that day, 30% that month we, um, used to spend about 1500 to 2000 on Google. Right. Mostly brand search that day we spent like 7,500. It's just upper funnel, just driving that bottom of funnel, you know? So that's how I think you have to look at TikTok and just knowing

Ash Melwani (00:30:24):

Question about Google though. Yeah. Did you have to bump the budget because you were maxing it out?

Cody Plofker (00:30:30):

Uh, no. Cuz we weren't maxing it out before that. So that was kind of got it mixed out, but so, but same thing on Facebook, right? If you're looking in your triple well and you're looking at, you should have your correlations between your GA last click and your one day click or your, whatever it is or your seven day click one day view, right. Whatever you look at and you gotta just find the same thing for TikTok. And I knew that a 0.4 for us in TikTok was really like a 1.8. Yeah. We were at like a one, we were at like a, a one TikTok when we were like cruising and crushing it. And that was like a 2.8 for us in triple. So that's kind of, have you found a similar correlation for you?

Ash Melwani (00:31:07):

Um, GA I've noticed is about half of what Facebook was saying most of the time.

Cody Plofker (00:31:15):

Okay. But that's your Facebook outta one day, right?

Ash Melwani (00:31:18):

Yeah. No, no, no. Sorry. It used to it when we were doing seven day, it was about half now, one day. It's like, it's pretty, it's pretty close. Um, but are you, what do you, uh, at least for TikTok, I don't know yet. Cause we haven't really looked in the data as

Cody Plofker (00:31:33):

Much. Yeah, I would. I would just look and see cuz

Rabah Rahil (00:31:37):

Yeah, I was gonna say from the accounts I sit across Cody that's basically, um, all the biggest spending accounts. That's ultimately what we see is almost like a, almost like a two to three X, multiple where there'll be a 0.5 in channel. Um, and then a 1.5 or higher, um, on triple, um, especially in TikTok and Facebook, it varies a little bit more to your point. There's a lot more the one, the less you spend on Facebook, the less variance there's gonna be in triple, just because Facebook's attribution, even though it is, um, not that great right now, it's still pretty darn good. Um, toss is absolutely atrocious. It's really bad. And so, um, that's been for a lot of people. The pixel has helped in that way. Like not to be weird creepy product bitch, but um, there's some proper disparities on, uh, TikTok versus uh, T dubs. Whereas Facebook, um, is a lot more in line, especially on the lower spending accounts where in TikTok, when people started to spend even, even, you know, 500 to a thousand dollars a day where it's like not tiny budgets, but not like you're not really churning and burning. Um, it, it really can make or break you because you, you're not gonna scale a 0.5, but you're absolutely gonna scale a one five or a two.

Cody Plofker (00:32:46):

I think that's important. Yeah. So two to a three, again, like know if you're looking at a one day click or, or, or a seven in TikTok, but definitely know what's in your platform is not what, what it actually is. I mean, same thing. Like even Facebook is terrible. Like we're really going heavily on the triple attribution for us cuz we're, we're finding some really good correlations, but I, I, I honestly had no idea if TikTok was working at first cuz we were having a 0.4 0.5 and I'm like, I don't really know. And the other thing is cuz we were spending so little compared to our Facebook and, and our organic that it, it wasn't affecting our Mer at all. You know? So, so that's why having again, and I'm not trying to do product placement, but having the pixel really helped us

Rabah Rahil (00:33:24):

Look at, look at this guy, look at this guy, uh, question for you too. Um, cuz we're actually, I'll be able to get in the TikTok game soon. We just got a strategist board and we're gonna start down some cheddar. There it'll be a little different cause we're B2B, we're SAS. So, uh, but it'll be fun to kind of play in the, playing the playground with you guys being in the club. But the question I have is do you guys, and kind of pivoting to the second ish topic as well, um, with what the kids call a segue, by the way. Um, do you guys see a correlation between having to actually have like organic post and building that account? Is that helpful or can you just go hard in paint on dark post or like having those organics and then running them as spark ads? Can you gimme some color there? Does that make sense? What I'm asking?

Cody Plofker (00:34:05):

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think Ash?

Ash Melwani (00:34:07):

I got mine. Um, so as soon as we started running ads, right, the account started to grow a lot more. Right. I mean for the last year we've been posting on TikTok. Um, nothing really took off and I think us trying to find what our organic strategy has or has to be, has been very difficult. Right. Um, like we're doing like stuff that's trending or like, like we're not trying to be like product, product, product, we're just doing like, you know, fun stuff. That's, that's trending. Right. And like we've had like one or two videos that have done. Okay. But like they're not gonna be like, they're not gonna move the needle. Right. So when we started running ads, the account grows very, very quickly. Right. I think we're like about to hit 4,000 followers. Um, we grew about a thousand followers in the last like 10 days.

Ash Melwani (00:34:55):

Right. So let's just say like we get a hundred followers a day now. It's like, okay, well now there's a reason to post cuz people like wanna know more about the brand. So what I was thinking is our strategy should be how to use the products in a fun way. Right. So like for us, we'll probably do recipe videos, right? So like here's a way to make chocolate donuts with 10 grams of protein. Right? So like things like that, where now we have to focus on creating that content versus ads. I think those can be a little bit more polished. Um, obviously in like the TikTok TikTok format, but you know, having the videographer kind of film the girls, you know, in the kitchen and this and that and like, you know, making a bunch of stuff that I think is where we can probably start seeing traction on the organic end because, because we have more followers, we'll probably get a little bit more engagement and because we're getting a little bit more engagement, we'll probably have a better chance of, you know, going viral or, you know, at least getting, uh, more organic a reach there.

Ash Melwani (00:35:58):

So, um, I think it's, it goes hand in hand, but like I know brands that will go organic first and then paid. Right. But I think for us, we had to go paid first and then organic.

Cody Plofker (00:36:09):

But you were doing some, it's not like you weren't doing organic cuz this wasn't clicking.

Ash Melwani (00:36:13):

Yeah, no. I mean like our, like when we were, when we were posting, I would say like maybe three to 4% of like the post purchase surveys said TikTok, which was interesting. Cause we were only getting like 300, 400 views and I was just like, I, I don't, how do we capitalize? Like what do we do to like push that up? Right. And we would just post more and more and more, but we would still get like 300, 400 view. And like there wasn't enough traction there, but I think now, like we see the videos that we're posting now get more views and I think it's because the past's growing. Right. Um, so I think there there's two sides to it. Right. I I think at least for us is we went hard on the paid so that we can go hard on organic. Now

Rabah Rahil (00:37:00):

Can I ask you a question? Did anything from organic make it into the scale campaign?

Ash Melwani (00:37:07):

Uh, well there, no. No.

Rabah Rahil (00:37:14):

Okay. Yeah. So everything was dark posts that scale.

Ash Melwani (00:37:18):

Yeah. Most of them were dark post. Um, the only reason to do it is because like we can't keep pitching the product on organic. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (00:37:25):

It, I was just, it was just, uh, uh, curiosity of mind where when I was running Facebook ads at an agent at my agency, that was basically how we found most of our winners was actually, um, ING dish on social and then it would crush on that's why you get the engagement and then you'd throw it in the scale campaign. And it is just churning and burning cuz you're getting, um, and we'd actually run across both layers of prospect and retargeting, even though the retargeting might not be quote unquote purchases, you would just get super fans on there, throwing comments and stuff like that. And so it would just have this, this huge synergistic loop of success. Uh, and so I just didn't know if that's how kind of the, the,

Ash Melwani (00:38:03):

Yeah, I could see.

Cody Plofker (00:38:04):

That's how I, that's how I

Ash Melwani (00:38:05):

Do it. That's how I could see that working for Cody a lot better than it would work for us.

Cody Plofker (00:38:10):

So the, the reason I love TikTok so much and I, I definitely wanna talk about organic a little bit. It's, it's a platform with the least amount of difference between paid and organic. The entire reason is the way the algorithm works and

Rabah Rahil (00:38:22):

Say that differently. I, I I'm, I think I'm tracking, but okay. I want to get a little

Cody Plofker (00:38:26):

More clear. So on, on most platforms, right? If you're gonna talk about like Facebook ads or let's say Instagram ads versus like an Instagram organic video, the best practices are very different, right? If you're gonna look at a good ad, you wouldn't take a good ad and put it on your Instagram feed for most brands, there's some overlap, but I would say it's probably a 10% overlap. No one on organic social on organic Instagram is talking about the hook. They're not talking about the engagement rate, right? However, on TikTok, they are the reason why is entirely how the algorithm works. Okay. I, I had a call with our, our rep who was like a head, I think like head of partnerships at TikTok today. So she, you know, this was kind of like cemented a lot of the things I've been thinking another trap, which is just saying where I'm getting my sources, cuz I got called out for not putting ES we're not tagging Esra when I share stuff.

Cody Plofker (00:39:12):

So I gotta trust me bro. Yeah. So, so right. So part of it is 85% of people on TikTok use the four U page. They don't use who you're following. So because of that, right, that is prospecting you're you're now showing content to people who don't know like, and trust you, who don't follow you. So it's the same exact principles, right? Also you have the organic distribution that you just, the ability to go viral. Essentially. The way that it works is when you're looking at like your organic reach on Instagram or Facebook, we'll say Instagram part of what's what's weighted in there is your accounts, history, how often you post what your average engagement is. That doesn't matter on TikTok. That doesn't matter. You could take a three month hiatus. They just look at the video and that's why you see these accounts with no followers going viral or these videos going viral because they're really just looking at what are what's the engagement like on this video comments, views likes the most important one is average watch time and a percentage of people that watch the video to completion.

Cody Plofker (00:40:17):

I watched it multiple times and anybody can do that. It's super diplomatic. Right? So with that being said, what are the principles that makes a good TikTok? You have to have a really good hook. Okay. What's that sound like? That sounds like an ad to me like, like when we're talking like Facebook ad best practices, you have to have a good hook. You have to optimize for watch time. You have to make it engaging. Right? There's some similar similarities there. There's probably not the highest correlation between ROS and average watch time on a Facebook ad. But I still think it's important. I do think that there is some, you know, some importance to that, you know, even getting comments and, and likes and, and shares is important for Facebook ads, right. That usually helps you with your auction, right? Yeah. Same thing on TikTok. That's extremely important.

Cody Plofker (00:40:59):

You know, so all of those principles are the same and here's the other thing, right? Uh, the, the rep showed us this thing is she, she posted a few things on her personal page and we looked at the comments and the people that were commenting on them were so different. One was about, well, we'll call it fashion. One was about, you know, something completely different. And the types of people commented that if you look at their comments and look at the, the go to these people's profiles, completely different demos because it didn't care about her account. It just cared about the content in the video. And what's everybody said, Ash said it, the targeting is your creative. So there's all these signals that you can do to target different audiences with organic TikTok. Number one, I, I was told this today, when you put captions on it. So captions in like the TikTok font on it. If you do it in the TikTok editor, that can be crawled by the algorithm. And that's actually a signal. If you edit that Adobe, they have no idea.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:56):

That is interesting. So they're still burned in, but somehow the TikTok editor knows or is doing some meta. That's interesting. That's

Cody Plofker (00:42:04):

Exactly right there. Hashtags. Well,

Ash Melwani (00:42:06):

Question about that. If you repost, if say you created something, you downloaded it and then re uploaded it, will that still happen?

Cody Plofker (00:42:14):

Ooh, I don't know. I didn't ask that. That's a great question. But so like again, like all these principles that we talk about with Facebook ads and we're talking about TikTok ads, like they're the same principles that are important for organic TikTok. So with that being said, you know, everybody talks about make TikTok, not ads, but I still think most people make ads. I really think that the best tos are again, content, not just pushing product, but I also think the best TikTok ads are not straight up ads. It's not, Hey, do you struggle with this? And again, you can do it, but we've had more success with the other stuff. So instead of, do you struggle with this? Here's this thing, there's no value given that yes, you're, you're have a good hook and you're selling something and you're putting your value props, but that's still an ad.

Cody Plofker (00:42:56):

I want to do stuff where it really doesn't even look like an ad. It looks like it's just a TikTok. Because again, it's, if I'm doing a newspaper ad, I'm not gonna have my graphic designer do something. I'm gonna write up an advertorial. And I used to do a bunch of newspaper ads for like my local business. And I'm gonna write up an advertorial with the exact same font that the newspaper uses, cuz that's kind of hook people in better. It's gonna, it's gonna stand out by kind of fitting in a little bit, you know? So my strategy, especially if you have any organic TikTok reach is put your stuff up organically and then see what angles are hitting. That's kind of like the Petri dish that Robert was talking about. And then from there, I'll take that angle. That's hidden, let's say it's how to find your miracle bomb, shade. That's one we did. And then I'll, I'll edit that up with three different hooks, but I won't put all those on my page. I'll dark post them and then I'll run those as like sparks from our page.

Rabah Rahil (00:43:45):

That's brilliant, man. So let me say it back to you just so I understand it. If you take a FA like a successful Facebook ad and a successful Facebook post and you take a successful TikTok and a successful TikTok ad the variance between the Facebook ad and the Facebook post will be quite large. Whereas the variance between the TikTok success ad and the TikTok organic successful, or the organic post that's successful and the organic ad that's successful, the variance is gonna be very little if any

Cody Plofker (00:44:12):

A hundred percent. Yeah,

Rabah Rahil (00:44:13):

I don't

Cody Plofker (00:44:13):

Wanna say, I don't wanna say like if,

Rabah Rahil (00:44:15):

No, no, you're not giving Absolut, but I'm just saying like, that was the thesis, right? When you said that to me, that's that's yeah. You're on fire Cody, the stoplight, the, the, the, to variants, the brain get again. It's yeah. The COVID just, just keep getting Ronna every week. You know, we can work with this.

Cody Plofker (00:44:33):

Yeah. And, and so why, and I, I think why is because you, again, like you always have to consider, why is somebody on that platform? What are they there for? And I, a lot of people have talked about this, but I'll just say again, like TikTok is not a social platform. Tick TikTok is an entertainment platform, right? So you have to be giving people. And another thing that the rep said was that they're really trying to crack down on a lot of the dancing stuff, cuz they know the most valuable users, right. To advertisers and to them are the 40, 50 plus not the people that want to dance stuff. So educational content is being favored in the

Rabah Rahil (00:45:04):

Algorithm. Just gonna say that, I think motivational

Cody Plofker (00:45:06):

Stuff, have you seen less of the dancing?

Rabah Rahil (00:45:09):

Yes. Well I cuz when I first got on there, dude, it was basically like thirst traps. I'm just like, man, you know, come on. I'm I'm 36, you know, I don't need this anymore, but to be fair, dude, I found out about a section 1 79 deduction on there, which is like this really obscure tax deduction where you can buy fancy heavy car. That's why people drive rich people, drive range, rovers and G wagons and stuff. You get this, uh, essentially $25,000 year tax or not a year. Um, in that tax year deduction, if you buy a car over X amount of weight, I found about that about on TikTok. And so where not to kind of steal your rant. But what I've found fascinating is where TikTok is really interesting to me is now it's not only an entertainment platform, but it's starting to merge entertainment with education. And that confluence is really, really valuable where if you can entertain people and I'm giving you value that you can make

Cody Plofker (00:45:56):

Your life better. Infotainment

Rabah Rahil (00:45:58):

Ish. Yeah.

Cody Plofker (00:45:58):


Rabah Rahil (00:45:59):

Ish. Yeah, something like that. But I mean, ultimately that gets really interesting where I've seen some people go through some more nuanced subjects on there where I'm like, that was really well. You get some green screen in, you get some, I mean, it's really interesting and you're also seeing a lot of YouTubers start to port over that are, um, very, um, they've cracked kind of the YouTube algorithm. And now they're starting to understand that infotainment model is having a ton of success on TikTok. And I think that that to me is the most fascinating where it gets really interesting where you can just cuz the algorithm sensational. I mean, I, it is, I have to, I have to really like moderate myself cause I, I have an addictive personality and I'll just fall in and then two hours later not know what happened. Um, and so I think you're so onto something there Cody, I think that's absolutely the, the, the path that it's going. And I think it's gonna be, um, ultimately a SU, especially too, cuz you know what can happen? They can just start extending the video times and they're

Cody Plofker (00:46:55):

We just got whitelisted for 10 minute videos.

Rabah Rahil (00:46:57):

You can do Twitter.

Cody Plofker (00:46:58):

They're literally, and they're literally trying to compete with YouTube for that.

Rabah Rahil (00:47:01):

That's it? Wow. And now you're starting to get, like, not only the younger demos, but also these older demos, that to your point, they're starting to scrub the content of, um, kind of the, the more egregious offensive, if you will. Uh, you know, I'm putting in quotes, air quotes, but offensive content that you feel a little awkward watching, and now you're getting served up just incredible stuff that is basically America's funniest home videos matched with encyclopedia. Britanica I mean, it's really, really, uh,

Ash Melwani (00:47:29):

Business. How do you think those 10 minute videos are gonna do? Cause like on Instagram I GTV completely flop. Yeah.

Cody Plofker (00:47:35):

Yeah. It could flop, it could flop, but if they're gonna do what Facebook does, which is kind of reward, you know, make, give you, what did you call it? You know, I think you talked about last week, but essentially giving you like crazy reach behind that stuff so that they can kind of compete and get some market share. It makes sense for us as advertisers to kind of, or just just brands to do a little bit of that, you know?

Rabah Rahil (00:47:57):

Well, and

Ash Melwani (00:47:58):

I think, I think they also have to train, sorry, but like I think they have to also train the user to like, appreciate that type of content. Because like, for me before I was like 10, 15 seconds. Right. So I'm just like, I'm consuming a ton of content in like an hour, but now it's like three minutes. So it's like, I'm consuming a little bit less than one hour, but now it's like 10 minutes. I don't know if I'm gonna have the attention span for that because you trained me to think 15 seconds is all I need.

Cody Plofker (00:48:23):

So, so, and here, and here's what they said. Right? I know Robin, I know you wanna say something, but let me say this real quick. So they found right, they had three different lengths of videos. They had like nine second videos that crushed it. They had 32nd videos that actually did not do well. And then they had like 45 plus second videos. And what they found was people, you know, they thought people had short attention spans. So we got a reward, short videos. People were actually watching longer videos, right. And again, you've heard a bunch, people don't have short attention spans. They have short consideration spans. So you have to hook them in. But if your content's really good, people will stay and watch. And that's why the average YouTube watch time is like Robin, you know, it's like 45 minutes for something like the average YouTube discussion

Rabah Rahil (00:49:02):

It's really long. And you'd be insane to see like some two, three hour lectures have like 75 completion, 75% completion rates. And, but again, it goes back to kind of your thesis Cody, which I think is so brilliant. And again, the consideration time span you're on fire. This one

Cody Plofker (00:49:17):

You're on fire. I, I don't know who said that one. I didn't wanna name drop again.

Rabah Rahil (00:49:21):

Oh, guru again, gurus again,

Cody Plofker (00:49:23):

Not original. It was not original,

Rabah Rahil (00:49:25):

But here's the thing. People start building like a presentation like infotainment. And so maybe that first 30 seconds to a minute is the hook. And then it's like, okay, cool. I'm gonna show you how to save $25,000 a year or a year. If you buy a new range Rover. And you're like, what? Oh really? And then now I like walk you through the tax structure and not only like a entertaining way, but you're also actually have actionables. And so that five to 10 minutes just goes fast because it's segmented into a presentation style. But the only reason is because you won that consideration set at the beginning with the hook that you're talking about Cody. So I, I don't know. I think I'm super bullish on the long term videos. I, I, I think that cuz if you think about it, I don't think the actual, um, watch time.

Rabah Rahil (00:50:09):

So say you might spend an hour. I don't think that hour is gonna truncate. I think what's gonna happen is you might watch less videos for longer because you're gonna get more value from them. And then you're also gonna see creators start to pop up. So now the consideration span isn't necessarily even on the hook, it's on code your Ash where it's like, I know that person has always given me fire. So I'm gonna just already buy into this. And even if it's five to 7, 9, 10 minutes, and then you can do some things as well, where you can have, uh, you know, like the keep watching to make sure that people are into it and stuff like that. So there's ways you can moderate the user experience to your point, Ash, of like, you're not just gonna throw somebody into a 60 minute lecture, but I don't know. And then furthermore, now you're gonna, I don't know. I think it's gonna be incredible cuz now you're gonna surface the best of the best like tax advice is terrible, but there's some really good teachers that not only understand the tax code really well, but know how to make it a fun like

Cody Plofker (00:51:00):

Did in junction junction girl, hold on. Did you see the, the Excel girl that blew up? She makes million, she makes millions

Rabah Rahil (00:51:08):

A month.

Cody Plofker (00:51:09):

So anyone who doesn't know there's this girl? I don't know if it's like the, I don't know her, her handle, but she essentially does Excel videos and she does it in a really engaging way. And now she sells courses. She does webinars, but she makes millions a month just from TikTok on Excel. The most, the most boring topic in the world,

Rabah Rahil (00:51:28):

Printing money. I met a gal at geek out, shout out Nick Shackleford. Uh, I'll be there this weekend presenting as well. <laugh>

Cody Plofker (00:51:35):


Rabah Rahil (00:51:35):

Drop. Oh man. I had to keep up with you. I had to keep up, you know, uh, no, I met this gal and she was in, uh, I can't remember the law. She was in some really boring, um, law segment and she actually ended up leaving her lawyer job because she literally does TikTok videos. Now has millions of followers talking about like the obscure sect of the law and how it applies to you and X, Y, and Z. And I don't know, I'm so bullish on it. I think that, uh, YouTube would be, be very worried. I mean, that's why they're trying to get into YouTube reels and stuff like that. Trying to inverse. Right. They already have the long form and now can they,

Cody Plofker (00:52:06):

Everyone's trying to be each other at this point. Right? Ash, Ash, don't you guys have a podcast. We

Rabah Rahil (00:52:12):

Do. Yeah, we do. So

Cody Plofker (00:52:13):

What you shop for your organic man, but what you should do for your organic is you, if you record video, which you should be again, taking those clips, like Gary V style and throwing the comments on them, like that is going crazy with the algorithm right now. Like that would be one the way, the way I like to think about organic is like, it's like you, you have a TV station, you know? And this is like for like a Russell Brunson thing, but you have like a TV station and then you have different series on that, you know? And you should have like recurring things, you know, you might have some comedy things, right? You might have some educational stuff, some drama, right. Some stories, but you should have like recurring segments. So then like Robert said, like, so then let's say you have those two girls on the podcast or two girls doing recipes over and over. Like people then see that. And they're like, oh, let me watch this. Like, those are people I know. Let me, their content's always good, you know? Yeah. But the podcast could be a good one.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:02):

That's that's actually one of the things that we're gonna start, uh, for T dubs, um, that's the big TikTok strategist play was like, uh, building series around certain things and then making those series into like digestible chunks and then giving people a reason to come back and back and back has been, um, super successful for him. So, um, yeah. I mean, I, I couldn't vibe with you guys more. I mean, I think that's, that's super big brain stuff. All right, boys, we're pushing up against it. Uh, you wanna call it? What else do you guys wanna talk about? Let's call it. You made there's there's been so many, so many good drops. Um, you didn't even know there. I didn't know. There was a Avi podcast who, how do people find the Avi? My Avi podcast? Who, who who's on? Give us some color. What's

Ash Melwani (00:53:44):

Up? Yeah. So the girls started, it's called don't over spill. Um, it's with, um, our two girls, Madison and Hailey, and they literally just talk about a bunch of shit and it's hilarious. Um, it's on YouTube. It's on Spotify, apple music, but I mean, the idea behind it is that we, we have our Facebook community, right. 50, almost 50,000 members now. Yeah. Um, just having more content for our community to engage with is just, we wanna just keep 'em in the ecosystem. Right. So like, you know, like Cody was saying is that, you know, just putting out this valuable content that you can consume on a daily, weekly, monthly basis keeps you in this ecosystem right now. Whether or not the pushing product or not, you know, it's still like, it's, you know, don't over spill a podcast brought to you by obvious. So it's still always top of mind.

Ash Melwani (00:54:31):

So, you know, I mean, it all goes back to, you know, building community and making sure that, you know, you're, you're constantly top of mind and you're, you're constantly offering value where you can, which is outside of just like, Hey, you get 20% off college of protein. Right. So like, which is why we're like pumping out more recipes cuz like we, we did a poll in the group the other day. It's like, well I want, I want more ways to try, you know, the protein. I want more ways to try this, you know? So it's like, all right, well we'll do you know a recipe? Um, every week we'll have the podcasts so we can just sit back, relax. It's literally just, it's like watching two girls just Bick and fight and laugh together. And it's just, it's hilarious. So just, just stuff to keep the community entertained and, and want to still be a part of like Avi and make Avi more of their lifestyle more than what it is already. So that was the,

Cody Plofker (00:55:25):

I'll say one parting thing. One more, one more name drop. I think, I truly think that like, that's amazing. And I truly think that if you're not like let's say 20, 22 and beyond like creating content, like parallel to what your brand does. So again like linear commerce, creating content to build community, to build an audience that that is not pushing product. Like if you're not doing that going forward, you're not gonna make it.

Rabah Rahil (00:55:50):

Yeah. Can I give you two examples to build both of your UHS? Even stronger? Totally. So U C president I'm big into MMA, U C in specific. Um, and the UFC president, um, is Dana white and Dana white does something called fuck it Fridays where he has his personal chefs make him the weirdest kind of food. And he tries 'em and rates it. It's the top rated piece of social media puts out every week. And this is bigger than his fight announcements. This is bigger than everything. And this has nothing 0% to do with UFC in fighting another one F one F one was a dying sport. Yeah. Drive to survive has absolutely exploded. Not only the market, again in Europe, it wasn't so much dying, but they could never break into the states. I was, I actually watching F1 race this weekend. I mean the, the drive to survive is done so many things and they're not selling anything even more. So you guys are gonna love Netflix, pays F1 to make it so F1 isn't even spending any money on their best commercial platform or their best ad in a way. I mean that's big brain moves there. Hundred percent, hundred percent. Um, alright boys, let's wrap it up or do you have one more thing, Cody?

Cody Plofker (00:56:56):

No, no. I was gonna say, say what you want about bar stool, but I think they're like the ultimate eCommerce company I saw, they just opened a, a bar. Like they're gonna come out with so many different product offerings just because they have such an engaged community. Like they sell obviously tons of merch merch. They sell drinks, they sell all these drinks. It's it's they started

Rabah Rahil (00:57:15):

Selling the pizza, right?

Cody Plofker (00:57:16):

One by pizza. Yeah. The one bite

Rabah Rahil (00:57:17):

One bite. Yeah, exactly.

Cody Plofker (00:57:19):

Like they're huge. And people have no idea. And again that there's no paid, like they're not spending unpaid. So if you want to diversify off paid, this is how you have to do it.

Rabah Rahil (00:57:29):

That's my

Cody Plofker (00:57:30):


Rabah Rahil (00:57:31):

Create value mental model for, uh, triple Wells content, empires, Barlow sports. It's, it's incredible empowering people with that. Um, Cody, you just, uh, and don't shit on him for selling courses. People. This is great stuff. You just got a mentor pass, right?

Cody Plofker (00:57:47):

Yeah, I did.

Rabah Rahil (00:57:48):

Can the people let the people know how they can connect with you, get some, some of your time and get access to that big brain?

Cody Plofker (00:57:53):

Oh man. Now they're totally gonna call me a guru.

Rabah Rahil (00:57:56):

No, it's good stuff. Value for value, dude. You're one of the most brilliant guys and the way that you've skilled up in such a fast time is just really, I mean, you're a PT, like what, three years ago or something now you're like in the elite marketer category. Don't don't let the haters hate

Cody Plofker (00:58:11):

All. All right. I appreciate it. Yeah. So I just got on mentor pass if you guys don't know it it's, it's this amazing platform. It's like a marketplace that connects people that want, you know, coaching and consulting with, with mentors and, um, experts in their space. So, you know, I think Nick, Sharma's a top mentor on there. Amanda goats is on there. There's a lot of really, really brilliant people on there. I don't know why they want me. It must have hit have to hit some quota, but if you want to get some time on my calendar, that's the best way to do it. Um, just to get some reviews and some social proof going there, I have dropped the rate in half, so I, uh, have already gotten a bunch of people booked in there, but we'll do a little bit more this month and next month. Um, so if you wanna get on there, just check it out on mentor pass.

Rabah Rahil (00:58:50):

Beautiful. Nice man. That's

Cody Plofker (00:58:52):

Awesome, man. Congrats.

Rabah Rahil (00:58:53):

Fantastic. Appreciate that. Yeah, it's amazing. Amazing. Um, alright folks, that's it. That is, uh, I think number five in the books is that right boys? Five, five, oh man. Synco for our, uh, Spanish speakers out there, much love to everybody. Um, again, if you've gone to get more involved at triple well, it's tri triple well.com we're on the bird app at triple well. And then we have a phenomenal newsletter that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday called whale mail. Cody's actually been in a few of them. We need to get Ash. We need to get any of those essays, baby toss. 'em over. We we'll we'll get that promos going. Um, but we really appreciate all the support. It, it really felt good. Uh, I felt really bad. I'm a huge believer in the behavior loop. Um, and uh, obviously health comes first. And so we, we kind of tried to push Cody a little bit, but he was he's showed me the aura screenshots.

Rabah Rahil (00:59:36):

And you can't argue with data, you know, there there's opinions, but you can't argue with the data. So we really felt, uh, really blessed when we saw all the, the tweets about how people were kind of, uh, a little bit ruffled to say that, uh, their ad spend hadn't come out yet. So, uh, we'll try and keep it on a, on a weekly schedule for you guys, uh, barring any kind of health or, you know, major scheduling conflicts. But again, thanks so much for all the support. Cody Ash, you guys are amazing. Ash. What's your, uh, Twitter handle

Ash Melwani (01:00:03):


Rabah Rahil (01:00:06):

Beautiful Cody, uh, Cody bluff. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, boys. Thanks again. That's uh, number five in the books and uh, we'll see you guys next week.

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