Rabah Rahil (00:11):

All right, everybody, you know what time it is? You are not your Roaz. I am Robert, your host coming to you from Austin, Texas. I have my wonderful partner in crime and tycoon in the eCommerce industry, max blank. And we are joined by this. When I saw this on the calendar and this got booked. I gotta tell you people, I mean, the pants tightened a little bit. It was an exciting day. And so we have the road island rock star, the NFT pickle, pioneer Jess Bachman in the house. Some might know him as hire fire team in the, probably one of the most followed and awesome missed accounts on marketing Twitter. But Jess, how are you? Thanks for joining

Jess Bachman (00:49):

Us. Oh, great. And I am determined to make this the best episode that you've ever had.

Rabah Rahil (00:54):

Oh, you see that commitment people right out of the bank.

Maxx Blank (00:57):

I was also very excited when I saw this on my calendar. I have

Rabah Rahil (01:00):

To, oh yeah. He's, he's

Maxx Blank (01:01):

A favorite. I was gonna call its,

Jess Bachman (01:03):

I'll see if I can top, uh, Christina, but, and she was great. And if I knew like half as much about marketing, as she knows about Marvel, I would be so good at my job.

Maxx Blank (01:12):

<laugh> she? She

Rabah Rahil (01:14):

Could go deep. I was just sitting here. Like, I couldn't even know though it was that we were joking that, um, always sunny meme of her, you know, when he is putting up the board and stuff. Yeah. She's a hitter. Um, okay. So I'm obviously, uh, back in the marketing HQ in Austin, max is in Columbus, uh, for our actual proper HQ. Jess, where does this podcast

Jess Bachman (01:34):

On you? Downtown Providence, Rhode Island.

Rabah Rahil (01:37):

Oh, look at that. I love it. I love it. Okay, so let's jump right in. Um, I wanna read a quote off of your website, which I love. Um, okay. So holistic design, product, marketing strategy, grand Mester, specializing in moving the needle. I've been there, done that sold the t-shirt season, but not salty tech adventure. I love helping people help people and I could design my way out of a paper box as comfortable at the small council as I am. Karen heavy loads, hoarder, hoarder, hoarder. Uh, <laugh> give me, give some color behind that. That's a lot in one. How, how gimme the elevator pitch of you like that? That's so such an interesting, yeah.

Jess Bachman (02:17):

Descriptor. I've had a, well, first of all, I like writing copy, as you can tell, but you know, thinking about an entry point for me, like I've always, I've always thought of myself as a designer for sure. I started like designing concert posters for like hundreds of bands. And then after college I was like, I'm gonna make this my profession. So I joined a company called select design and I'm an untrained designer too, by the way. So I joined a company called select design, their embroidery department operating a 12 head sewing machine, sewing, Nike swoosh onto gym bags. And I was like, ah, this is about life now, I guess. Um

Maxx Blank (02:54):

<laugh> but

Rabah Rahil (02:56):

Oh man, only up from

Jess Bachman (02:58):

There, only up from there. So I, I always had these sort of side hustles and one of them was like, I created this like infographic that depicted the federal budget spending, um, really hard to, hard to explain, but it went viral on the internet and I went on like the Martha Stewart show and then immediately I was like, I quit my job. No two weeks notice, like I was making like a thousand dollars a day selling this poster. And back then my paycheck was like a thousand dollars every two weeks. So it's like PC you later, um, doing that. And then, and then you come to the second realization where like virality does not last and a thousand dollars today turned into like $20 a week. And it's like, now I need to use whatever skills I just learned to, to really make a living. Um, and then, wow. And then from there, like I, I did a lot more infographics and I kind of take responsibility for really pushing the marketing infographic into the mainstream. Um, my apologies by the way, for, for all of that,

Rabah Rahil (03:56):

People either love you, hate you. I, I, I, I'm more of a infographic maxi. I, I like infographics when they're done. Well, I think they're, they're pretty slick, but uh, HDR, photos, if you're familiar. Yeah. I, I do love the J too is, but it's almost like HDR. If you go to, you know, you don't go a hundred percent HDR. It just, it ruins things. And I think sometimes with the infographic, wow.

Maxx Blank (04:16):

Jets. Do you ever ride, you ever redo that the federal spending for like the past 18 months does like how much bigger your picture would be? Well, I,

Jess Bachman (04:25):

I did it, I did it every year. Like I redid it every year and that was how I made money. And like April tax time was sort of my Christmas because that's when it was most relevant and when I'd go viral, like every year. Um, so yeah,

Rabah Rahil (04:39):

Just hit the, hit the money printer. That's awesome. That's so you went, so you've been east coast your whole life? Um,

Jess Bachman (04:45):

Yeah, I've been east coast, but also like doing these infographics. I got picked up by a company called mint.com. Um,

Rabah Rahil (04:53):

Yep. Yeah, yeah. A company. Yeah, prelaunch. I think it was like billion dollar prelaunch.

Jess Bachman (04:58):

So

Maxx Blank (04:58):

I was, I was in didn't know a Kagan. Nope.

Jess Bachman (05:01):

Noah Kagan was one of the marketers there. Yeah, for sure. Um, so I was with them prelaunch to exit essentially the whole journey, doing infographics of the, like the 10 most popular things that they did. I made nine of them. So

Rabah Rahil (05:17):

How cool

Jess Bachman (05:18):

Fun.

Rabah Rahil (05:19):

That's really neat.

Maxx Blank (05:21):

We gotta get Jess on the triple whale, uh, on the triple. I know,

Rabah Rahil (05:24):

Hey, we need some graphics. I know many

Jess Bachman (05:27):

Christmas that's that's a past period. Hung up my hat there.

Rabah Rahil (05:30):

Got it. Last life, get new jerseys retired in the rafters. Uh what'd you study at Amherst?

Jess Bachman (05:36):

Uh, communications. Totally. Uh, useless. My, my professors were all like, um, they were like Marxist, like playing like, you know, melodies on guitars from like gorilla leftist. It was terrible. It was most useless, uh, information ever, but,

Rabah Rahil (05:54):

Oh man, I love that. I

Maxx Blank (05:56):

Don't think that's just unique, you know, like all the campuses now, right?

Rabah Rahil (06:01):

Oh man. Yeah. I love that. Um, so I have, uh, my VA kind of stock all the people. And one of the things, one, you had one of the most interesting briefs I've ever received <laugh> which is a Testament to how awesome you are. But two, how in the hell did you get into learning to play the bagpipes?

Jess Bachman (06:20):

Oh, so

Rabah Rahil (06:21):

Who plays the bagpipes? Why?

Jess Bachman (06:23):

So

Maxx Blank (06:24):

That's not an easy

Jess Bachman (06:25):

Thing. It's not, and I have a thing where I learn, uh, I collect hobbies sort of, and I learn it just enough to not be a master or even good at it, but enough to like do a good party trick, you know? So I <laugh>, so I, I

Rabah Rahil (06:39):

Chop sticks on the piano per

Jess Bachman (06:41):

Se. So I do, I do like the bagpipe, particularly like the long droning resonance sound and I'm, I'm not a fan of Thery do so I learned the bagpipes enough to play, um, amazing grace and that's it. And I quit

Maxx Blank (06:54):

You, you know how to play. Thery do no, Matt's a cool instrument. You should pick that one up. Maybe that's next. I can put it as you do.

Jess Bachman (07:02):

Okay. No, prove it.

Rabah Rahil (07:04):

You

Jess Bachman (07:04):

Can't prove it. Max

Rabah Rahil (07:05):

Is actually, uh,

Maxx Blank (07:06):

I will not on not on camera. I can't do it on camera.

Rabah Rahil (07:10):

Max is hidden talents. He's a drummer for 12 years and he is also used to be a stud swimmer. That's right. Insane. Right. That's right.

Maxx Blank (07:18):

Yeah. Back in the day.

Rabah Rahil (07:19):

Incredible. Um, okay. Another cool little tidbit that I found on your profile. Um, you could start a fire with sticks proper.

Jess Bachman (07:25):

Yeah. So part of, part of my whole like super mega overarching ethos is about achieving balance and being like a super digital centric thing. I feel like I need to, uh, do things with my hand. I need to have skills that might come in, come in use when the internet dies, you know, and so getting into survivalism and bushcraft is, was, was part of the sort of hobbies that I sort of collected. And, um, definitely I love that's that story.

Rabah Rahil (07:56):

So do you have a go bag in anything? I

Jess Bachman (07:58):

Do have a go bag. Um,

Rabah Rahil (08:00):

Oh yes,

Maxx Blank (08:01):

Yes. Do you have a chicken cone?

Jess Bachman (08:02):

No, I I, what with survivalism you go, it's very much a rabbit hole that gets wicked expensive beyond the go bag.

Maxx Blank (08:11):

<laugh> yeah, it's a great niche. Great niche. Man's good. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (08:15):

I love it. Um, okay. So tell me the next thing that is so fascinating. You have a thousand underground records and I knew you were a DJ, but I didn't know. You, you, you, you slang tracks like that. Tell, tell me a little bit about that.

Jess Bachman (08:28):

Yeah. So, um, yeah, I was a DJ particularly underground hip hop and this is like, well, my personal golden era of like 1998 to 2000 and, and like two, 2004. Oh, for sure. So you might be familiar with like most Def or like black star tele, that type of thing. Um, and then, you know, that back then I was like pre Spotify is like pre Napster and the only place you could get this stuff was on vinyl. And, um, I built my collection that way and because no one wants to hear underground hiphop at like parties or anything. I also got into like house and techno and that type of thing.

Rabah Rahil (09:06):

Yeah, man. That's incredible, dude. That's so cool. So you're, you're on the ones and tunes with proper vinyl, no digital stuff for

Jess Bachman (09:13):

You. No digital, never. It always like I'm, you know, hats off to people that do it, but that always felt fake to me, but I, you know, that's that, stuff's fine too.

Rabah Rahil (09:24):

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Uh, okay. Another fun one, man. I'm telling you, you just have this, you're just the most interesting man in the world kind of thing. We need to get you the, uh, or what is that? Uh, doki, uh, and a beard, but, okay, so you invented a universal language of time, the hell does that mean? Um,

Jess Bachman (09:41):

<laugh> so this is one that takes a longer to explain, but I created this method of telling time using onlyi gly. Um, I mean, it's, it's really hard to explain. I'll send you the video. I made this video of like how to explain it. And I tried to, in addition to that, I tried to start a movement like inserting a day in between Wednesday and Thursday called flu day, which was like a day off. Cause it feels like midweek, you need a day to just like, get the laundry done or whatever, and then you then there's and then you just like a two day sprint and then you go into the weekend.

Maxx Blank (10:18):

Oh my God, couldn't pull that off either. I love you, man. Why, why doesn't army time just work for you then? Why do you have to do a whole

Jess Bachman (10:24):

New, right. So it's, it's, it's a way to visually depict time because a lot of times you, when you see like you park and you see this sign, it's like, you can't park anytime between, and there's just like this manuscript of all these different things. It's really difficult to understand. Uh, I came up with a way to depict that without any letters or anything like that.

Maxx Blank (10:43):

Got it. Okay. Okay.

Rabah Rahil (10:45):

Fine. Visual storytelling at your core. I, I love that's

Maxx Blank (10:48):

Right. That was the start.

Jess Bachman (10:49):

Yep.

Rabah Rahil (10:50):

That's incredible. So you already answered this question, but I was fascinating to see how you got invited by Martha Stewart, but so that was your, uh, info infographic, awesomeness. Yep. How cool. Love it. Okay. Just two more quick questions. Uh, what's the nicest thing someone's done for you?

Jess Bachman (11:06):

Um, I would say probably marrying me, uh, by my wife <laugh> was a very kind gesture.

Maxx Blank (11:15):

Um,

Jess Bachman (11:16):

Putting up with everything I put her through and then, uh, so there we go.

Rabah Rahil (11:21):

How long have you been now?

Jess Bachman (11:22):

Uh, we've been together for 18 years.

Rabah Rahil (11:25):

Awesome. Fantastic. That's so cool. Um, okay. And then this is a little bit meta, but um, very precious seeing the announcement today. Uh, what's the most important thing you've learned in your life and then what was your life like before that? And then after that, like a big epiphany. Yeah.

Jess Bachman (11:42):

So a big epiphany is, and I'll uh, do you know the char Charlie Munger quote, where it's like, show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome, you know, as soon as you understand that and you get into situations where you, you see what the like, cuz what people say is the outcome is, is never really what happens. And as soon as you can pick out what is the, what is that person's actual motivation, like on a higher level, you absolutely will know how they make decisions and how they decide on things. Um, and I, I just see that everywhere now.

Rabah Rahil (12:16):

I, I love that there's uh, I, I read fantasy sometimes, cause I love like just business books and stuff like that, but I have to turn off sometimes and it's weird where sometimes you'll find a bunch of wisdom and you know, a fantasy book, for example, for me. And one of the things in there was, um, every man or person has a question. And once you figure that question out, you can really operate more efficiently in terms of your actions. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because you understand what is driven or what that person values AKA is driven by. Um, yeah, it's a huge thing. Not

Maxx Blank (12:49):

Only that. So I love that you can run a business a lot better with people and manage people once you fully understand like what is driving this person, you know, you can really have a good relationship with them cuz you understand them on a deeper level. Yeah. Once it gets them moving.

Rabah Rahil (13:03):

Oh, I totally agree. There's actually a really cool kind of um, like employment pricing theory and basically the, the long and the short of it is that instead of like satisfaction and dissatisfaction being on one continuum, like satisfaction and dissatisfaction are actually on two different continuums. And basically what that means is at a certain point, like in extrinsic factors like money or having a cool office or these things start to like, they don't make you more satisfied. They just make you either less dissatisfied versus like giving somebody responsibility or giving somebody purpose or running an department or ownership or whatever, to your point fires that person up max is actually gonna drive their value more than, um, giving them a money or bonus or what have you. Yeah.

Jess Bachman (13:49):

And, and, and Rob, I love, I love talking to you because the way you like pull up all these different like theories and, and thinking and, and being a, you are very much a student of, of thought in the way things are done and you don't see that a lot these days and it should be a lot. It should be a lot more prevalent. So awesome. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Rabah Rahil (14:08):

Oh my God. I'm the one supposed to be slinging. The comments here, Jess. That's that's dirty pool. You're trying to soften me up for the rapid fire, but little do you know, max is doing the rapid fire, so you're giving the wrong personal confidence. Okay, cool. So we made it through our first segment. Great job, Jess. Okay, cool. This is why people bought the ticket. This is the value add segment. So Jess runs one of the cooler agencies on Twitter. Um, how did you guys start? Yep. And then how did you kind of mold into your specialization of just this high level strategy?

Jess Bachman (14:38):

Yep. So to, to quickly finish sort of my story, you know, I got involved in startups, I was doing a bunch of start hustles myself. And then at some point, um, my wife was like, can you get a real job? Cause we just bought a house. So I took a job job at a <laugh> at a sort of larger, more traditional advertising agency who had clients like new balance in Gatorade and they made commercials and um, doing all that, it was great because I brought like this, this, this growth hacking this digital mindset to, to what they were doing. And I was like, guess what guys, you can retarget people. And it sort of blew their minds. You know, <laugh>, this was a few, few years ago. Um, and then like that was fun. But after a, after a point, it, it became something where the incentives didn't align like traditional agencies.
Unfortunately it's like really aligned to, uh, winning awards, winning, you know, prestige and, and whatever. And they make creative, that wins awards and it fails in market. And, and we shoot, we shoot videos that were like half a million dollars and then put $50,000 worth of media spend behind them. Or they just, they spend, or, you know, like CPG brands, they buy media, like it's like a 30 year fixed mortgage, you know, in these like massive chunks or something. And I was, I was a little bit too much of like a change agent inside. I was like an entrepreneur and that kind of got kind of irritating and allowed by my ideas didn't fly. So I left, uh, a little over a year ago and I brought like the three or the two smartest people with me from that agency to start fire team where we can work with mostly, you know, certainly performance, um, performance, you know, based clients, um, D to C e-comm, all that type of stuff. And it's kind of interesting cuz we're now like we're getting a lot more CPG clients now mm-hmm <affirmative> and if, and as we're still like blowing their minds with the, the cause they're just, so they're not used to any of the more modern tools or tactics or, or strategies mm-hmm

Maxx Blank (16:40):

<affirmative> but fire team is less than a year

Jess Bachman (16:43):

Old. Yep. We, we left the agency in September of last year.

Maxx Blank (16:48):

I not know that. Okay. Wow. Rock,

Rabah Rahil (16:50):

Good work. That's why they have the, the DAF funk, the space suits baby. It's a <crosstalk> right now that that's fantastic. And then, so when you brought everybody over, was everybody kind of like complimentary skills, supplementary skills, like, do you guys all do the same stuff or everybody kind of owns their own silos and then the synergies kind of make the whole, or

Jess Bachman (17:07):

How does that work? So we definitely have silos. Um, I'm sort of like creative strategist, uh, high level I'm I'm also a media buyer as well. Um, Rachel is, is our sort of head media buyer. Nikki is our, our main client. She's an account manager and particularly working with like larger, uh, like nine figure clients. Do you need someone that knows account management? It is like a bureaucracy mess, um, whatever. Um, yeah. And now, and now we, we just hired like as of yesterday, a operations manager, because we have so much stuff going on and then we also have a, a very social, organic social media, um, specific focused person, Ashley who's an influencer herself. So yet we do have our own silos, but everyone is in everyone else's business, uh, because you have to, and you're a small agency and everyone's got good ideas for things. And um, so it's not siloed in that respect,

Rabah Rahil (18:04):

Man. I love that. Um, okay, cool. So one of the most interesting campaigns I've ever seen, um, was the NFTs pickles for grills. Tell, tell me about how to, or just kind of, for people that don't know, give them the kind of gist of what the campaign was. And then also I wanna know how did you pitch that? Cuz it that's a hard pitch even to, you know, even a fairly open company. So give us the, the spiel.

Jess Bachman (18:28):

So gorillas is the pickle company, uh, they're big in the, the east coast they're actually bought by King's Hawaiian and now we're, we're doing a, a campaign for Kings Hawaiian. I do that, but anyways, so cool. They, um,

Rabah Rahil (18:42):

Hawaiian roll NFTs,

Jess Bachman (18:43):

Uh, I'm not discussing anything about it

Rabah Rahil (18:46):

<laugh> oh, not, we cannot disclose at this time,

Jess Bachman (18:49):

But um, so gorillas is actually a weird, they're kind of like a weirder on the weirder side of brands. Like they did this collaboration and they created a shoe with Patrick Ewing or something. They're just, they're known for doing, being kind of weird. And so we pitched them like, Hey, let's, let's do something weird. Let's take advantage of this sort of NHT mania. And this was like the first wave mm-hmm <affirmative> with people didn't really know it's was not as developed as it is now. You know, there's a lot of explaining going on mm-hmm <affirmative> yep. So what we did is we wanted, we released their mascot, which is Sam, the Sam, Sam, the pickle in all these different sort of digital little J versions. And they were, and we released them as NFTs. But one of the things that we really love is doing campaigns like that, like at the previous agency, they'd come up with that idea and that's it because we're performance based.
We need to come up with all these supporting legs to it. So we can't be like, oh, people are just gonna buy NFTs. Cause that's what they do. You know, we needed to come up with a supporting mechanism to do that. So if you bought one of these Sam Sam pickles, there was then this March, cuz it was during March, there was like this March madness style bracket that was took place on their social medias. And like these, these NFTs would like battle against each other. And if you owned the winning Sam, Sam at the end of the, the, the bracket, you got a year's worth of pickles. So, um, it was crazy. It's so cool. Amazing. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (20:14):

The, the animations, the gifts were fantastic. Yeah. The entities, I had no idea how it worked and I was trying to buy one. I messaged you and I was like, Hey, I don't have enough money. I had no idea what gas fees are, stuff. I remember you just sending me like a, a face Palm emoji or something like that. Well,

Jess Bachman (20:29):

It was, it was a really difficult time to be in market with this stuff because of the gas fees. And that's something that we planned for. It's like, okay, it's $7 plus $80 fee. Like <laugh> makes no sense,

Rabah Rahil (20:43):

Got a little spicy. So, um, yeah, they did really well. It was again, it was so cool. And the themes behind 'em were just fantastic. Um, okay. Kind of shifting gears a little bit when you bring on a client or audit a client or um, you know, ideate around that to generate a proposal, take me through kind of that process.

Jess Bachman (21:01):

Yeah. So we get a lot of inbound, particularly from Twitter. Um, and so generally if, if we feel like there's fit, we'll do an, an audit. Um, and the audit is both like for their benefit. So we can be like, here's some ideas of things you can do better, but a lot of times it's for our benefit, cuz it's like, is this a bullshit brand or not? Do they have something hundred percent? Do they have some kind of magic beyond the Facebook algorithm that we can work with? You know? Um, and so once, once that's there, it, it, it becomes kind of challenging because we're not just media buyers, um, that, and we're actually doing less and less media buying these days. Um, and so we do have one client where we do, yes, we do their media buying on a bunch of different platforms.
We do their organic social, we do their email, we, we do their, um, we design the, the freaking product. We design the website so very much integrated and we can't do a lot, but we, we can't take on clients like that all the time. It's just a ton of ton of work and it's, you need a, a really good fit, uh, you know, need a good working relationship. So it's a lot of times it's like, how can we get started with something that's smaller to make sure that, um, uh, you're not a dickhead and we're not dickhead and everything it's like working out well. And cause a lot of times we're finding is like, sometimes like the product can be good, but like if you're, if we don't like working with you, it's just, it's just makes it the work's not gonna be good. You know? So, um, yep. Dating first and then trying to work into more of a sort of marriage type relationship, I guess.

Rabah Rahil (22:43):

Yeah. I love that. I, I think too, there's a lot of times I see it kind of in a bifurcation of zero to one and then one to whatever. Um, and there's some companies that are, you know, zero to one companies where it's like, they just need other stuff. And I've found that, you know, certain a really when I see the agencies are more or again, there's two different types of agencies, but I think most agencies are multipliers where like you have something, but then I'm an augment that. But if you have zero, it's really hard to go. Cuz the other thing is you're gonna be trying a bunch of stuff. And if I'm paying you, you know, five, 10 K a month and nothing's happening, it's not because you suck it's because you haven't tried anything and you have to try stuff that works. And by definition, you know, you're, you're gonna miss a lot. And so I think it just makes a client relationship tension kind of. And the other thing is a lot of times when you're in that zero to one space, you you're not as capital rich. Yep. You don't have cash flow. And so it's like every dollar it's that joke, right? When somebody hires you for $500 a month, they're like, Hey, this, this really intimate pack I'm signing with blood. And I want versus 5,000 or 10, Hey, checks paid, you know what I mean?

Jess Bachman (23:50):

For new brands, there's so many unknowns that need to become known. Like your CPM could just be terrible for, and particularly with new brands, with not history or on the, on the pixel or anything. And that could just blow up the entire like relationship or, or whatever. So, uh, we do, there are some brands that we do work with from the get go, but it's because we know that there's something beyond, um, the data story that, that we can work with. You know, there's, there's, there's some magic there.

Rabah Rahil (24:21):

Right. I, I love that. Okay. What's the hardest part of owning an agency so far and what's been the best part?

Jess Bachman (24:29):

Um, the hardest part I would say, I would say the hardest part is, uh, talent, uh, not necessarily hiring, but it's one of those things where like we, you know, we started working with clients and they wanted email and it's like, oh, okay, uh, we'll figure that out. And then we find like maybe a freelancer to help us or something. And then you get these, you get these skills where it's not difficult to do email, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> to, to do that. Well particular. So, you know, working with external partners has been difficult because it, it really hasn't been to the level that we, we need it to be. And we'll get to a point where it's like, uh, okay, I can do that better. Or I can pretty much do what you're doing, but doing it better. And as soon as you're like that, it's like, well, we can't do it. Everything ourselves. You know, we do need to find really super capable people, um, who, or are at our level. And that, that is the really the challenging part.

Rabah Rahil (25:30):

Oh man, I couldn't agree more. So, uh, going back to some frameworks, there's something called absolute advantage and competitive advantage. And even if you have the absolute advantage, there's gonna be certain things that you're just gonna drive more value for you. Um, but I am actually dealing with that now kind of at a leadership position at triple, like I can't be doing the IC stuff anymore. Like I can't design the website. It's more approval strategy. Yeah. You gotta multiply. That's a great point. And so, um, when you have those short term losses, they really it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.

Jess Bachman (26:03):

And how do you do the zero to one multiplying where it's like, I can't do it, but I'd love someone to do it full time, but I can't, you know?

Rabah Rahil (26:13):

Yeah. It, it's a interesting kind of paradox in that way. Um, but I I've found that, you know, to your point, the way you're doing it is that dating strategy is really great. And then, um, trying to maybe evolve into an in-house position, but then again, you go, you, you get right back into the rabbit RA or, you know, rat race of like, okay, cool. I'm gonna let go this awesome freelancer. And now I have to go find somebody. And the other thing that people don't realize that I've absolutely realized now is like, when you're running so fast, hiring's actually really hard. Yeah. <laugh> oh, it's really cause where do you put it on the calendar? Right? Like, like where does it fit? Like I'm trying to grow the business. I need to get leads. I need to be posting. I need be doing this. When am I hiring? And it's just all this upfront work for very little or not very little payoff, but, um, it there's the, there's just so much upfront cost of like, not, everybody's gonna be great interview there's

Jess Bachman (27:06):

Much.

Maxx Blank (27:09):

Yeah. It's like the time you put into interviewing, giving that person onboarding and then like all of a sudden it's like, oh, didn't work out now. You're back. You know, it's like, it's, it's difficult.

Jess Bachman (27:18):

And the mechanics of hiring and, and the funnel is so messed up cuz like the, the woman we just hired, um, Erin, she like her, her resume was like, not that great, whatever. Um, but she filled in for Nikki while she's on maternity leave and crushed it while she was here while she was like thoroughly tested and it's like, oh my God, please stay with us forever. So, um, you can't do that all the time. You know, you can't hire full time for three months and then see how it goes to see how people do, you know.

Rabah Rahil (27:50):

Yeah. Especially at the lower agencies where you just don't have the balance sheet to support where it's like, yeah, I can eat three months of revenue or salary. No worries. We'll we'll see, we'll see how tests out and then circle back, like yeah, that doesn't work. Um, okay. So since you are doing all this craziness across all these different platforms across all this different stuff, like what does your tech stack look like? Or how are you kind of processing making decisions, internalizing data?

Jess Bachman (28:14):

Um, yeah, so what's, what's really challenging is like, because we don't do like only media buying our tech tech and our, our projects and our processes go all over the place and there's like eight tech stacks or whatever. Um, but our, our main central way of, of dealing with things is through notion. Um,

Rabah Rahil (28:39):

Just gonna ask you

Maxx Blank (28:40):

Love,

Rabah Rahil (28:42):

We're trying to get, I'm trying to get AJ. He lives in Trello right now and uh, I'm trying to just move the whole company cuz we don't have a, a actually, if you don't mind give us that, cuz I forgot you wrote a really big thing on that. Give us kind of that living in notion kind of a little in depth description there

Jess Bachman (28:58):

For your notion, isn't the best for everyone. Um, but it's the most flexible you can design if you, if you need to, you need to come to it with a process of how, how information throughs flows through something. And then you can design that in notion, we went through everything else, like click up and Asana and you get to a point where it's like, I wish you could just do this in click up and you can't and you can't reach out to the developer or whatever, but in notion because it's, it's like Legos sort of for like project management, you can build your own system, but you can't, but you can't come to it with, with no like system on top of it because that's not really what it's for either, you know, you're gonna be overwhelmed or, or underwhelmed. But if you have a sense of how you want information to flow, then absolutely notion is the best way to do that.

Rabah Rahil (29:47):

That's so eloquently put, I've never thought of it that way. And now that I, now you've given me that paradigm, it's so perfect because that's exactly right where there's and to be fair, like that's the point of a, you know, trail of a sign or whatever is to force you into certain frameworks. So you don't have to build it from the ground up. But if you do take the time to understand how information flows, you can database, you can do so much stuff in notion. And to your point, Jess, with the best part about it is like everybody can do their own thing essentially. And so like everybody can figure out different ways to get value from it versus, you know, forcing, I guess I think of it in terms of like, what you're saying is you need to have a macro processy, but like at the micro level, everybody can do their own thing.
As long as it accomplishes the macro where that's not the case. And a lot of these cuz there's this weird edge cases or their accountant uses it different than the media buyer than the data analyst and notion really covers all those use cases without breaking that macro level process. But without that macro level process, it can definitely feel overwhelming. Or um, you just get a lot of technical debt where it's like, oh man, I forgot about this. And now I have to either redo all these pages or you know what I mean? There's just better ways to

Jess Bachman (30:58):

Use it. Robbie

Maxx Blank (30:59):

Just slowly get me over. That was slowly converted.

Jess Bachman (31:03):

He's a process called pillars pipelines in vaulted by this guy called August Bradley. I dunno if you heard of that guy, have you heard of him?

Rabah Rahil (31:10):

Yeah. I've heard of him in, in uh, Tiago forte has something a little bit similar, um, for uh, second brain, but it's not it's notion specific, but since

Jess Bachman (31:19):

Yeah. So like, you know, I saw some videos and I bought like the thousand dollars course from that guy and, and he's like the most optimized person on the planet, which is like gross. I hate that life, whatever, but <laugh>, we can, ours is an adaption of that, which, which works for us and notion allows us to make that adaption because like you can have a process like GTD like, or GTD disciples and there's apps for that, but you can't branch off. You can't add to that into like a G app, you know? Yep. So

Rabah Rahil (31:49):

Yeah, I love it. All right. I'm gonna make AJ listen to this segment. I mean you can do, you

Jess Bachman (31:54):

Can do Trello in so you can do can,

Maxx Blank (31:57):

But you can, you can bring, can bring in there. You can like

Rabah Rahil (32:01):

That's a fair point, but to kind of push back, we don't, we're not totally married in Trello now and having everything in like a big master database sounds like crazy, but man, once you figure it out it's oh man. So cool. You just have to slice the data and you can do so much stuff with views, but having one big database is crazy cool. Just, and you can have relational stuff, you can get really cool. And that's what I like about it. It keeps things connected, but then there's also like just the ability to drill down into it. And it's a little internet page. Basically it can drop links, do whatever. And so context, I actually run my virtual assistant off of that. Um, the comments are great. Yeah. I, I couldn't be. Yeah. I love it. Love it. Great minds think alike. Um, okay. What do you think are the biggest challenges and what do you think are the biggest opportunities for like marketing agencies going forward?

Jess Bachman (32:50):

Um, so I, I think the, you know, the iOS, you know, 14 or 15 shuffle has been super interesting and, and I love that because times an industry gets shaken up it's opportunity to see where a lot of the real opportunity is and what we've seen and with brands is like brands. Their magic was the effectiveness of the Facebook algorithm. And once that was taken away from them, all the organic social that they stopped doing two years ago or all these other, all these other skills at trophy and, and now they're left with nothing. And particularly they're, they're overarching brand messaging. So we we've got a lot of brands coming to us. We're like, what did work? Doesn't work anymore? And it's like, yeah, no kidding. It's like UGC and features and benefits. I don't know. What are you trying to move people with that

Maxx Blank (33:43):

Don't know what you're talking about, man. Dunno what you're talking about, what you're talking about.

Jess Bachman (33:48):

It's not just you max it's you are, there's a lot of other people, um, that, that have this issue. Most brands I would say have this issue.

Maxx Blank (33:56):

You sure? Yeah. We work together

Rabah Rahil (33:59):

So many inside jokes. You

Maxx Blank (34:00):

Guys have a job, bro.

Rabah Rahil (34:02):

Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I, I, that's kind of the, and again, it goes back to, it's hard to justify those spends when, um, everybody was paying money and paid media. It was really hard where it's like, dude, I'm not gonna spend five grand on organic. When my immediate buyer's getting me six X rows, go spend more. You know? And so, but also to your point, you know, the, the feeds you don't sew when you need to come reap, come autumn. I mean, this is a great reference cuz you guys literally have this where the winter freezes over, like what do you eat? And so you see these brands where it's like, man, there's these foundational big builds again with people like you where it's like, Hey, we pretty much have not scuttle the ship, but we gotta start at the foundational level and build this back up because your, your pyramid essentially toppled and yeah, you were inverted where you were pay heavy versus foundational community heavy and then you can build paid on that. But yeah, it's uh, which

Maxx Blank (34:57):

Sounds way more solid if you were to work on the, on the ladder first, right? It's like way more solid, like

Jess Bachman (35:02):

Yeah. And there's brands that can be salvaged and there's brands where it's like, sorry, you don't deserve to exist. It's not an equal opportunity marketplace. <laugh> you know, so the drop shifters have been killed and I love that, you know? Um, yes. Yeah. So I love shifting, I love shifting the marketplace less to, uh, optimization Kings and more to, how can you tell a really resonant story? Because I think that's gonna filter throughout the entire marketing funnel.

Maxx Blank (35:34):

Sure.

Rabah Rahil (35:35):

I love that. I feel that at, at a macro level, in terms of my life where it's like, I got into like a growth hacking health hacking, like all this hyperspace. And like once you really get into that and you see like the proper masters, like not like Tim Ferris, like no, no, no judgment against Tim Ferris, but he's like the antithesis of what I wanna be where he's just on the periphery of knowledge versus like, I think it was just more interesting for me to, um, not look at that in terms of optimization, but you know, value for time type of thing. Like, am I enjoying this and not just economics, right? Like, am I enjoying my time? How am I spending my time? And when you're optimizing, optimizing, optimizing, not only is it really stressful for me, um, if anything goes wrong. So like he throws one of the most optimized airports in the world and it's super efficient until it isn't. And so if there's any type of breakdown in that kind of mechanism or chain of events, dude, your whole day so fucked and it was just, it was on the edge. It was, it's not the path for me.

Jess Bachman (36:36):

And this is, this is marketing. We're supposed to change behavior and make people feel, and you're not gonna optimize your way into someone's heart. You know, it's like, it really frustrates me cuz everyone's like, uh, the thumb stopping ratio, it's like we're marketing to thumbs and not like people's brains <laugh> um, so that's, that's certainly, that's one of the lessons that I took from the, the creative agency who prided themselves on telling big, beautiful stories. But also it's like, can we, can we not like fade up to, to from black for like 10 seconds before the start of the commercial? You know, they just didn't know how to execute on a way digitally that that made sense or, or tell a story across the funnel. Like yeah, we, yes, people only have to take three seconds, but once you get them, let's evolve that story to somewhere else down the funnel. Um, so I think we're sort of bridging that gap between the big, bold creative stories and the messaging and what actually works in the market in 2022.

Rabah Rahil (37:34):

Yeah, no I a thousand percent agree. Um, okay. One last question for the value add segment. So for agency owners out there, what has been your best lead magnet or something that has really worked to get you inbound leads?

Jess Bachman (37:47):

Um, yeah, so it's a combination of two things. One is Twitter and putting out and putting out good content. Um, I love, you know, Twitter's a good place to learn. It's a great place to get leads and that, but to complete that cycle, I think you need to have good website. Um, and yeah, the past agency, they were like, they were like, oh no one, you don't get leads from you. Don't get break customers from your website. It's like, who, you know? And I was like, all right, that sounds like someone who doesn't get leads from their website saying that <laugh>, um, we, we get leads all the time who like, I love your website. I love your vibe. And we use it as a filter because we have a certain vibe and we have a certain tone. And if you aren't about that, it's not gonna work out and you're not gonna reach out. And which is fine, but people who do reach out, um, they are about us. And, and the most interesting thing is we have a button on our website, which, uh, if you click it, you will be inserted into an internal meaning in progress if it's going on. And we have, we've got a nine figure client because they, the founders just hopped onto an internal meeting while we're there.

Rabah Rahil (38:57):

That is some gorilla marketing shit right there. That's cool, man. I love that. All right. We'll strap in Jess. We're gonna take you into the last segment, rapid fire max, take it away and

Jess Bachman (39:08):

Then wait before that, just to let you know. Yeah, yeah. Come in. After that segment, I have a two question. Rapid fire freak.

Rabah Rahil (39:16):

Oh, Touche.

Maxx Blank (39:17):

Wow. Okay. Cool stuff. I'm yeah. Okay, great. So

Jess Bachman (39:22):

We

Maxx Blank (39:23):

Got Boston, Boston overrated or underrated.

Jess Bachman (39:26):

Uh, Boston is way overrated.

Maxx Blank (39:30):

Hmm.

Jess Bachman (39:30):

Because I live in Providence, which feels like it has like the verticality of a larger city, but there's like, there's like 80,000 people here or something. I, I, it's just a Providence. Their, their population peaked in 1940 and it's been like a decline ever since then, but it still has the infrastructure that feels like you're in Boston, but you can actually find a place to park within five minutes.

Maxx Blank (39:54):

Nice. Boom.

Rabah Rahil (39:55):

Does the

Jess Bachman (39:56):

Capital? Yes. It's the capital. It's like one of it's one of three cities in the state.

Maxx Blank (40:01):

<laugh> <laugh> okay. Here we go. DJs overrated, underrated. Oh,

Jess Bachman (40:10):

I, I will say in this era, a DJs are overrated for sure. Really well. I mean DJ, so here's the thing. There's, there's, there's different aspects of being a DJ. Um, if you are, if you are in a club, uh, I think you absolutely are, are earning your salt, um, understanding the vibe of what's going on in the, the right song and the next song or whatever. But if you are like DJ Khaled or something, uh, yeah, way overrated,

Rabah Rahil (40:40):

Major, key,

Maxx Blank (40:41):

Like, it is just all like computer augmented and like, just not,

Jess Bachman (40:46):

It's not difficult to have someone present you like 50 beats and pick a good one and then be like, I made it I'm DJ

Maxx Blank (40:53):

Khaled. I feel like, I, I feel like all these in like the modern songs, the pop songs are all like engineered so perfectly to like, make you wanna move. There's like a very much a formula

Jess Bachman (41:06):

There is. So

Maxx Blank (41:07):

Everything sounds the same. Yeah. There's right. Everything sounds,

Jess Bachman (41:10):

Yeah. There's like in all of like pop there's, like there's actually only like two producers and they're like from Sweden or something and they made everything, you know? Yep. Yeah.

Maxx Blank (41:20):

<laugh> okay. Bagpipes, overrated or underrated.

Jess Bachman (41:25):

Um, I don't know if anyone says the bagpipes are even good, so I don't know if they can be overrated

Maxx Blank (41:30):

<laugh>

Jess Bachman (41:32):

So, uh, I'll say, I'll say that they are underrated. Just know your setting, I guess.

Maxx Blank (41:40):

<laugh> I got that. Okay. Alrighty. Uh, TikTok ads, overrated or underrated.

Jess Bachman (41:46):

Um, I would say they're very underrated. I think the, the really the, the attention on TikTok, the audio on, um, which is very different than Facebook, where it's like audio off for the most part, the full screen, uh, nature of things. I think it is a, it is an amazing placement and a platform and the CPMs are only gonna get up as, as sort of Facebook crumbles. So very much underrated right now, if you can pull off the right content.

Maxx Blank (42:13):

And are you, are you seeing that good conversions from TikTok ads?

Jess Bachman (42:19):

It's, it's challenging because we're not seeing good conversions from like any platform necessarily, but absolutely. It's, you know, holistically when we, we're not running TikTok, we see that in the Mer and in other things like that. So, um, very much absolutely have it in your mix and for certain brands, um, you can crush it there as well.

Maxx Blank (42:40):

Yeah. Love that. Got it. NFTs over or

Jess Bachman (42:45):

On NFTs? Uh, I would say, I would say they're, they're massively overrated in terms of the like 10,000 generated, whatever blinds or, or snoops or whatever. Um, I think all of those projects are going to zero in the next few years,

Maxx Blank (43:02):

For sure. Once it kind, once it kind of died

Jess Bachman (43:05):

Down, can we, can we please just like think rationally about what one of these things that's like, quote, unquote worth and sorry, it's not a million dollars or even close to that. And people are just, you know what it reminds me of Rob, you might remember this the million dollar homepage. You remember that with like the pixel it's like there was like a million pixels and companies could buy it and it was a big thing. And

Maxx Blank (43:28):

What was that? I like vaguely

Jess Bachman (43:30):

Remember that there's some sort of viral thing where you could buy a pixel in this grid of a million pixels and companies would buy like a whole bunch of pixels to like spell out their name and the guy sold a million pixels for a million dollars. And then there was like all these other million dollar pixel things through which somehow didn't make a million dollars, you know? Um, so I think we're really seeing that right now in terms of these NFT projects, uh, in terms of the, the technology, for sure. I'm very long on that stuff. I just wish we could get more to the, the useful and practical and cool aspects verse like 10,000 auto generated dads.

Maxx Blank (44:09):

Yeah, for sure. I hear that. Yeah. Okay. Infographics overrated on

Jess Bachman (44:16):

Infographics are massively overrated and they have been for like 10 years. <laugh>, I've never, I've never seen them work, uh, in terms of marketing. It's just one of those things that have become incredibly saturated. For sure. If you, if you can use it as a tool to explain something great, but it is not a marketing tool I would invest in

Maxx Blank (44:36):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Facebook ads over or under.

Jess Bachman (44:41):

Um, I'm gonna say Facebook ads are overrated. Um, just because

Maxx Blank (44:48):

That's refreshing, that's sort of refreshing to hear, to say just

Jess Bachman (44:50):

Because, just because it is saturated and anytime when something is saturated, right. Any advantage you have once other people see it, it's gonna flatten to zero. And if you're not finding the next thing, right. Or if you're not developing your skills on TikTok or Reddit or some other weird platform, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna go to zero too. So I it's, I think Facebook ads are well past their prime. Uh, so definitely overrated.

Maxx Blank (45:15):

I mean, do you, do you think that like the TikTok is that sort of knew what Facebook was before? Or do you think just the whole entire like experience of advertising in that way is sort of overrated?

Jess Bachman (45:27):

I think TikTok once they, uh, can get more into the purchase data pipeline, um, I think they will. I think Facebook's advantage is they have purchased data and they know who the buyers are. I don't think, or TikTok is quite there yet. Um, but they're certainly getting there. And then the TikTok, the interesting about TikTok is that there's there's purchase mentality on that platform. The whole TikTok made me buy it is a thing. And so once they can get that, the thought of that to the actual data side and really find those buyers, uh, I think it'll dominate.

Maxx Blank (46:03):

I got it. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (46:04):

Especially if you think of some AI implications of like people like, uh, stuff being tagged in the TikTok and stuff like that, that goes viral. That's all free reach essentially. Or

Maxx Blank (46:14):

TikTok TikTok sort of freaks me out on a personal level. Like every time they open that thing up, it's like three hours later. I'm like, whoa, that's

Rabah Rahil (46:20):

So good, dude. I don't, I, I ration it as well. I can't even touch it.

Maxx Blank (46:24):

I've got rid of it.

Jess Bachman (46:25):

If we can plug in like Shopify audiences into TikTok, um, then absolutely Facebook would be, uh, dying prep.

Rabah Rahil (46:36):

Wow. Meta, meta, I think, I don't know if it hasn't went through, but it's, it's, it's unofficially meta so

Maxx Blank (46:43):

Far. No, I thought, I think I just, I think there's

Rabah Rahil (46:44):

That's official. Okay.

Maxx Blank (46:45):

I think I just saw the formula. Does that mean Facebook

Rabah Rahil (46:48):

For mainly known as Facebook?

Maxx Blank (46:51):

I think it actually you, the whole name, like no more Facebook on

Rabah Rahil (46:54):

Has cost so much money. Right? Like when a sports team does that, it

Jess Bachman (46:57):

Reminds me of like, uh, Philip Morris turned into like Altria or something like some blob, blah name, you know,

Rabah Rahil (47:05):

I love it.

Maxx Blank (47:06):

Like when, when Google did it to, what do you call it? Um, that that's more like,

Rabah Rahil (47:10):

But that was a actual business. That was a business. It was for, but that was for the financials that wasn't

Maxx Blank (47:17):

Brandy move. No, you can. But the name is still like, has like a sort of like this human aspect to it. Right. But like meta is kinda like, just like this, I picture, I picture like an AI robot.

Jess Bachman (47:25):

It's always gonna be the Zucker sphere. So like same

Maxx Blank (47:28):

Thing <laugh> I love it. All right. LinkedIn overrated or

Jess Bachman (47:34):

Underrated. Um, LinkedIn is, is overrated in terms of CPMs, actually LinkedIn just sucks. It's entirely overrated, I guess. Yeah.

Maxx Blank (47:43):

<laugh>

Jess Bachman (47:43):

There used to, there used to be some very viable strategies on LinkedIn, but, um, I, I just, I, I hate how much LinkedIn prizes, their, their data, um, you know, and CPMs are like kind of insane simply because they know who is like executive and yada yada yada, so overrated.

Maxx Blank (48:01):

Mm. Somebody asked today for triple well integration into LinkedIn ads. Thought that was interesting.

Jess Bachman (48:08):

Interesting. Oh, um, postscript, you guys integrating postscript?

Maxx Blank (48:12):

Yeah. It's on the it's on the, I think it's like a few weeks. Really. Okay, good. No plug, no plug real quick. Um, okay. Uh, block, block island or Rhode Island over block island, Rhode Island over editor

Jess Bachman (48:24):

Island. Um, I've,

Maxx Blank (48:25):

I've

Jess Bachman (48:26):

Actually never been to block island. Um,

Maxx Blank (48:29):

Ah, I thought

Jess Bachman (48:30):

I've done. I've done enough, uh, adventuring that now I just sort of like sit in my basement and do nothing <laugh> and

Maxx Blank (48:37):

Whatever <laugh>.

Jess Bachman (48:38):

So, and you know, and I'll, I'll

Maxx Blank (48:39):

Start, start fires with sticks while you DJ.

Jess Bachman (48:42):

And I've like, I've like kids and stuff. Who's older and it's like, I don't know. And then like C and it's like,

Maxx Blank (48:47):

How many kids?

Jess Bachman (48:48):

What,

Maxx Blank (48:49):

How many kids are

Jess Bachman (48:50):

You? I have three kids. One of them is technically not a kid anymore.

Maxx Blank (48:58):

How

Jess Bachman (48:58):

Cool. Fun. Yeah. Good stuff. Cool.

Maxx Blank (48:59):

Cool. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Uh, favorite meal and why,

Jess Bachman (49:04):

So you're gonna hate this, but I actually don't care about food like at all. Um, and so I, I have this thing where I go to restaurants and I always ask the server to, uh, choose something for me to surprise me because I, I really have no like flavor profile, but I do like being surprised and at least I can get a little bit of, of happiness from the surprise before I'm like, ah, this, this tastes fine. You know,

Maxx Blank (49:31):

I like that answer. Favorite book,

Jess Bachman (49:34):

Um, favorite book? Um, I would say, or one of the most important books and sort of my marketing career is, uh, influence by, uh, Shelby. Um, so yeah, I think like if you are, if you were a market, if you are a copywriter or you're a marketer and you haven't read that, then what are you basing anything on? You know, how are you expecting to influence any type of behavior? It's not like let's get motion in the first three seconds that doesn't do anything. Like how can we really dive deep into the brain and make, and start picking around and trigger some things that are gonna move the needle. So, uh, that one

Maxx Blank (50:15):

Favorite newsletter.

Jess Bachman (50:17):

So, um, do you know, uh, Hey, it's Alex P on Twitter?

Maxx Blank (50:21):

No, of course. No

Jess Bachman (50:23):

Practice. So she has, she, she is a super smart thinker. She's got a great newsletter. Um, there's some good ones out there, but I think she needs some more shine. So I'd say her.

Rabah Rahil (50:31):

Yeah, we actually featured one of her articles in well mail. She's fantastic. Great.

Jess Bachman (50:37):

So

Maxx Blank (50:38):

Favorite way to spend your time. Oh, where's

Jess Bachman (50:40):

It gonna be? My turn? Like how long is this going on?

Rabah Rahil (50:43):

Oh, there's only a few more. I promise.

Maxx Blank (50:46):

<laugh> favorite way to spend your

Jess Bachman (50:49):

Time. Um, so right now I'm currently making jewelry. It's my new hobby, like making rings and working with, with metal and stuff like that. So I would say cool. Um, you know, Saturday and Sunday, making, making jewelry, working, working with my hands.

Rabah Rahil (51:06):

That's fantastic.

Maxx Blank (51:07):

There we go. Okay. Favorite follow on Twitter.

Jess Bachman (51:10):

Favorite follow on Twitter. Um, so one of my favorite follows and, and you're not gonna know him cuz he is not in the media buying marketing world. This guy named Travis Scheffler. He's a, he's a, uh, a streamer that we, that we worked with, but he's like a professional. He's so good at shit posting. Um, it's great. It's like every post has some has just the right amount of shit post to it. Um,

Rabah Rahil (51:36):

It's an art. It is an art learned

Jess Bachman (51:38):

A lot.

Maxx Blank (51:39):

Oh, that's it. It's your turn. What's

Jess Bachman (51:41):

Alright. So two questions and, and either of you can answer, so what's your favorite sport team?

Rabah Rahil (51:48):

Sporty ball. I'm not super into sporty ball anymore. I watch more UFC than anything. Uh, and I am kind of a Cowboys fan by extension. I just living

Jess Bachman (51:57):

In Texas. Okay. Next question.

Maxx Blank (51:59):

I'm I'm the most unathletic interested. You don't say you'll ever me.

Jess Bachman (52:05):

So, um, next question. How come you haven't had more women on your podcast?

Maxx Blank (52:11):

Ooh,

Rabah Rahil (52:11):

Great question. Uh, we had, I guess just Christina. Yeah, we can get more help me

Jess Bachman (52:16):

Book. Yeah. Well it just feels like two guys. And then you have like another guy. So then it's like three guys, like all the time and you know, we, we are a majority owned female agency. I work with four women, so I would get the shit kicked outta me if I didn't ask that question. So, um,

Rabah Rahil (52:31):

Let's do it. Tell let's have 'em on. We'll have everybody on. We love it. We love everybody. It just happenstance.

Jess Bachman (52:36):

Good. Love to hear it. Alrighty then.

Rabah Rahil (52:39):

Awesome. Well, Jess here, I'm gonna throw it over to you. Uh, plug fire team a little bit. Tell us how we can get involved or how people can, uh, reach out to you for your

Jess Bachman (52:47):

Services. Yeah. So, you know, if you're on Twitter follow along. I do my own shit posting there, take it early <laugh> um, but certainly our website fire team.is, will give you a sense of our, our services and our vibe. We try and be interesting and different. Um, if that works for you than, um, don't everyone zoom bomb our morning meetings at once, but, uh, you can,

Maxx Blank (53:09):

I'm coming. So email I'm

Jess Bachman (53:11):

Coming, dude, email, email as well.

Rabah Rahil (53:14):

Wonderful. Jess, you're such an amazing person, man. Thank you for, uh, getting grilled over with rapid fire and being so vulnerable and giving us so much information. Um, if you guys wanna get more involved with triple oil at trip, try triple whale on the Twitters and then try triple whale.com if you want to sign up and then thanks guys. This has been amazing, Jess. Again, thank you from the east to Texas and then the Midwest fun. I love everywhere. And then I will make a note to get more women on the podcast at Jess initiative. And uh, thanks again, everybody for tuning in and we'll talk soon.

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