How Jourdan Smith went from photographer to Facebook ads master

December 1, 2022


Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale
Maxx Blank
Co-Founder of Triple Whale


Jourdan Smith
Director of Paid Traffic - Motif Digital

Episode Description

Sensational conversation with one of the brightest minds in media buying. Jourdan drops knowledge on how he scales campaigns and thinks about media buying. He also goes into cycling in San Diego, his photographic adventures and how he optimizes his life. Stellar pod, with a stellar person!#ROAS

Notes & Links


Rabah Rahil (00:10):

Incredible. Right. All right, folks, here we are. Lucky. Number seven, we had to bring in a hitter, the silent killer. I met him at geek out in LA recently, excuse me. He presented and I was just absolutely blown away. My jaw couldn't have been further through the floor. And so obviously we had to have him have him on the pod, Jordan Smith. Welcome to the pod.

Jourdan Smith (00:34):

What's up guys? How's it going? I'm super glad to be here. Um, thank you for the opportunity as well. And I appreciate the kind words about my, my geek out presentation, man. It was, uh, super nervous to, to present was my first time. But the feedback I got from it was, it was pretty amazing. Uh, made me feel a lot better about, you know, everything that I had to talk about and just kind of where I'm at in my career today.

Rabah Rahil (00:55):

Yeah. And you have a really interesting career, a too, sorry. I totally, uh, jumped over my amazing and co-host that keeps the trains on time. The main with the plan max blank, max, how are you? <laugh>

Maxx Blank (01:10):

In my box here. My, my WeWork

Rabah Rahil (01:11):

Box, right. We're doing, we usually do these in the afternoon, so I'm not as caffeinated. So I'm, so I'm not a little, uh, off

Maxx Blank (01:17):

I'm working on it. I'm working on

Rabah Rahil (01:18):

It right now. And so max is obviously out in, uh, HQ in Columbus. I'm back in Austin. And then, uh, Jordan you're in Carlsbad or San Diego area. Were you?

Jourdan Smith (01:26):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carlsbad, California. So 30 minutes north of San Diego, they call it north county.

Rabah Rahil (01:33):

Yeah. So man, so many beautiful places. California is one of my, my favorite, the west is just, um, one of my favorites. So how long did you live there? You've been there for how many years?

Jourdan Smith (01:43):

Yes, about two, two and a half years now. I moved out from, uh, south Florida. I'm originally a Florida man. Yeah. Uh, parents are military, so I, I don't take on the, the stereotypes, but yeah, I pretty much born and raised in Florida, man. I did get to move away for a little bit, but found my way out here, uh, in California about two years ago. And it's been great ever since. Wow.

Maxx Blank (02:04):

From Miami.

Jourdan Smith (02:05):

Uh, so like originally from the panhandle, most people aren't familiar. So if you, you know, where Tallahassee's at, you go west to the top, half of the gun. Um, then there's like a place called Dustin, Florida. And you know, it's known for a beautiful beach beaches. Yeah, exactly. The redneck Riviera. Some people know it. Yeah, man. That's awesome. It's definitely growing up in the south in that part of Florida, but it was a great time.

Rabah Rahil (02:30):

That's wonderful. And you, so you went to school out there, right?

Jourdan Smith (02:34):

Uh, yeah, for a little bit. I did. So I, I got my AA and then I, I found my way into the marketing industry and kind of just continued down that path. Uh, I love it. And it's brought me here. It just really been hustling.

Rabah Rahil (02:45):

I love it. And we were kind of talking offline a little bit, but you have a fantastic, um, Instagram, um, and you were telling me actually your camera got you into marketing, right? Yeah,

Jourdan Smith (02:56):


Rabah Rahil (02:56):

You give us some color to that story. Oh

Jourdan Smith (02:58):

Yeah, for sure. I'll give, give you some background. So I really picked up the camera early on in my life and, uh, started to take photos of just random things. I found my way to cars started growing some Instagram pages. So I kind of got into the content arbitrage side side of things. Uh, and I, I just grew the pages out and really started to want to create my own content. Cuz a lot of people were during those days, people were attacking you for stealing their work. There was no like exposure books, you know, they weren't really <laugh> that wasn't, there's a period where that stuff was credible, but now it's definitely not. Um, so yeah, I, I just went through that, wanted to create my own content and just got heavy into automotive photography and then started getting into like lifestyle and portrait stuff and, and getting into some, some, uh, landscape photography as well. So just really started to, to tap into different things. But ever since I got so serious with marketing about, you know, three or four years ago, I just haven't been picking up the camera as much and just really heavy in the ad accounts.

Maxx Blank (03:55):

So you spent most of your time with paid

Jourdan Smith (03:57):

Media. Yeah. Yeah. And your marketing exactly with paid media. And that's really why I noticed the biggest lift. I was buying Facebook ads like back in 2013, um, promoting posts mm-hmm <affirmative> that linked to my likes and I was, which is just like this content chart system. They paid you pennies on what they were making, but it was just an easy way to get into the content arm game.

Maxx Blank (04:17):

So that's, that's how, when I just quickly two seconds, this is just a fun little anecdote, but I had, I had a little, uh, startup, I used to live over in Israel and I was like in 2013 I think. And we had, we, we made like a Zillow for college kids. So we were based in, in Israel, but I had all these college connections from back in the states. So we like launched it in Ohio and all these schools. And so I I'm like what's this Facebook ads thing and there's no pick. So there was nothing back then. So I should just like go onto our Facebook page, the company's Facebook page and like just boost posts and target, just target the school. And then I would arbitrage like the views. I got show them to the local businesses and sell ads spots.

Jourdan Smith (04:54):


Maxx Blank (04:54):

On very,

Jourdan Smith (04:56):

You know what I'm saying? Very smart way to get. Yeah.

Maxx Blank (04:58):

So I was like, I can look at these, like I'm like, I got you 20,000 impressions. It was like, you know, 50 bucks and I would sell it like 500 to a thousand bucks. <laugh> that was fun. Just that, that took me backage or that took me back home.

Jourdan Smith (05:09):

I wish Facebook still worked that way. You know, these 5 cent clicks, amazing clicks. I got leads. We got

Maxx Blank (05:15):

Leads on that thing. We got

Jourdan Smith (05:17):

Leads on that. Yeah. It was definitely moving the needle. Uh, and then Facebook realized how much money they were making people and, and definitely started to change things up a bit. So here we are today,

Rabah Rahil (05:27):

The perpetual hustler you are max. I love that. Um,

Maxx Blank (05:31):

Your <laugh> Facebook's like your, your margin is our opportunity

Rabah Rahil (05:35):

<laugh> yeah. Eating up. Um, weirdly enough, I actually, uh, came into, uh, marketing through photography in a weird way. I just kind of broke, didn't know what I needed to do. And I started taking pictures, CrossFit boxes and yoga stuff. And then that kind of got me into ads as well, so interesting. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But it kind of fell to your point as well, where I've been so much into the operational side that I've lost. Uh, I haven't like went on a photo walk or anything like that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like I used to be really into it.

Jourdan Smith (06:03):


Rabah Rahil (06:04):

Um, jumping into your other hobby that I know you're, uh, very avid about is cycling. So how, how did you get into that and tell me some kind of cool cycling stories or like what do you ride or nerd out a little bit there?

Jourdan Smith (06:15):

Yeah, yeah. 100% man. So I honestly, I got into road cycling because my e-bike got stolen. I know it's a little weird to kick it off like that, but I was using the e-bike to commute, to work, uh, down in Encinitas. It's about five miles from where I'm at. So it was a pretty short commute in the morning. Uh, great way to get some exercise and, you know, once the bike got stolen, I got some money from my, uh, renter's insurance, cuz it actually got stolen from my, from where I live and I just put that towards buying a road bike. And you know, I got heavy into it living on the, in Southern California on the coast. It's just a great place to ride bikes. Um, and then the landscape, you know, growing up in a very flat, you know, geography is just not, not fun for, you know, kind of being outside.

Jourdan Smith (06:57):

Exactly. Yeah. It's hot and humid down in Florida. So just didn't really promote, you know, incentivize you to get outside. Whereas here it's like you see people walking, you see people riding. So I wanted to see what it was all about and you know, just started riding around, started climbing. A lot of the Hills started seeing what this area really had to offer from two wheels and it just, I got hooked on it. So I still commute to work. You know, we got an office down in Oceanside, California now, which is about a nine and a half or eight and a half mile commute. And uh, you know, I ride down there every day and I love it. So a 30 minute ride now about twice as long and I enjoy every bit of it.

Rabah Rahil (07:31):

So that's fantastic. Um, I used to, uh, work at whole foods and I live pretty much in like downtown proper, um, just, uh, south of the river. And I would have a electric long board cuz I was, I hate traffic. I just have like this aversion to traffic. It's just something that I just absolutely despise. And um, there's something too having that because it's not like physically arduous. Right. It's almost like a brisk walk. And like I would come into the office just like two coffees in like my mind was just right where it was just enough stimulus to really get you there, but it's not enough to tire you out or something like that. So you get it. There's something to that. Yeah. There's something to that kind of either walking or that brisk exercise, especially, um, exactly to start your day. I love that.

Jourdan Smith (08:16):

Exactly. It allows you to get into those flow states so much easier. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you get that exercise, you get those endorphins pumping and you get the exercise out that everybody tries to do before work and squeeze in. Um, you get it in the, at the start of your day and I love it. So right now I'm averaging like a hundred, hundred 50 miles a week. Last summer I was doing like 200. I had a little bit more time where more busy at the agency now. So it's like gotta, definitely had to tailor it back a little bit, but love every chance I can get out on the bike.

Rabah Rahil (08:44):

Are you a Strava guy or is there a particular app? Yeah. STR strong,

Jourdan Smith (08:48):

Right? Yeah. That's very good. You know, it's very, what's what's Strava. What is it? It's like a, it's an app for pretty much all athletes. They, they track every different, uh, it's like a social media platform for, let's see where I'm at on that. <laugh> and it allows you to kind of keep up and uh, keep up with the, the rankings locally and different time segments that you can kind of compete with other people on just to really see where you rank at. And I think with, with me being heavy into the numbers is just another way for, uh, for me to track the data. Cause I'm always in ad account. So I just really wanted as much data around what I was doing and around my performance and exercise and Strava is just another place to kind of consolidate all of that information and then you can rank and see how you are, how you stack up locally.

Rabah Rahil (09:29):

Yeah. It's, it's pretty slick. That's

Maxx Blank (09:31):

One of the re it's one of the residual benefits of being an ad account. All days you start to look at

Jourdan Smith (09:36):

Things very analytically.

Maxx Blank (09:37):

I know, you know, but then you gotta like bounce it out with some humanity as well. Right? Yeah.

Jourdan Smith (09:42):

It's just looking at data all day in analytics. It's good. It can drive you a bit crazy. It's good. But it's still fun to just be able to go back and look at it. All right. Here's where I started. Here's the objective data where I started to where I'm going, let's do it. And, um, or where I've gone and it just, it helps contextualize everything like, okay, I've actually made progress even though it doesn't actually, it doesn't feel like it. Um, but you can, you can look at the numbers and really see

Maxx Blank (10:06):

Quick question. Sorry, Rob, let me just know, uh, this, this, this is part of the flow of the questions anyways. So who, who says you have to do something for 10,000 hours to master it? What

Rabah Rahil (10:15):

Is that? What's his name? Uh,

Maxx Blank (10:18):

I, I know, you know,

Rabah Rahil (10:19):

Gladwell, Gladwell. It's actually. Okay. I'll interject. After you finish your thought,

Maxx Blank (10:25):

Jordan, have you spent 10,000 hours in an ad account on

Jourdan Smith (10:27):

Facebook? I like honestly for as many years as I've been buying, you know, possibly I've I definitely spent a lot of hours in these ad accounts. I don't want to too my own horn and say that I'm, you know, I'm at that level, I've mastered Facebook. Definitely not, but I've spent quite a bit of time in the ad accounts. Um, you know, my, the guys I work with are constantly telling me like, Hey, you need to take time for yourself. You need to like, you know, kind of cater to your mental health. And it's not that I don't like I get that, get that out on my bike. Like I definitely take care of myself and make time for it. But at the same time, like I love this game so much. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that I'm just, I'm constantly in it. You know, there's, there's late nights a lot and it's not by force. It's just by choice because I, I love to learn, uh, and, and crack things. And some of these, you know, opportunities and brands we're working with, you know, takes a little bit of extra time and extra thinking to really dig in and understand what's going on and how to, to solve the problem, especially with everything going on on Facebook right now. Fantastic.

Maxx Blank (11:26):


Rabah Rahil (11:26):

Yeah, that that's wonderful. Um, the 10,000 hours thing, max, so, um, it's not actual 10,000 hours. It's deliberate practice. And so people leave out that part. So it's like, just cuz you're like, you're not gonna learn this stuff by osmosis. It's actual actionable stuff. And it's actually like, there's a there's semblance of, or a confluence of strategy and effort, right? Like just because something takes you a long time and you put a lot of effort into it, doesn't make, make it important. Like you can go dig a hole in the backyard and oh, wow. Um, so I have a little bit of, uh, angst towards the, uh, that, that, uh, <laugh> came off the coffee's kicking in, I guess. Um, <laugh> one last question for you, Jordan. So like you've came up from this kind of photography south Florida. Now you're balling out living a really cool life in California. What systems or frameworks, like how, how were you able to kind of flip the script and move towards kind of your best? You

Jourdan Smith (12:23):

Got you. So really like kind of getting thrown in the fire, to be honest, I I've always had a propensity to just want to do more, want to learn more. I've always hustled. Uh, and you know, I can't give a, not give a shout out on here to Jordan Menard cuz he gave me my first opportunity. He saw that in me, um, at a, at a pretty early on, you know, he, he got me my first I cuz I, I have a, a strong background in buying, uh, info slash education products. Uh, so like digital courses, online courses and stuff like that. And he gave me my first shout at that. He saw that I, I was working at a local biz agency. He saw that I was hungry for more. I paid my way to go to Tim bird's mastermind and he is like, you know what, dude, I see what you got and I I'm building something big and I want you to join me.

Jourdan Smith (13:04):

And, but I'm gonna place you with an opportunity until that time. So he did, he uh, delivered on everything he said and just really helped me grow into the person that I am today. It's a huge shout out to him. Uh, cuz he pretty much downloaded his ad buying brain onto into mind. And uh, I had a lot of experience prior to joining him, but he just really helped connect a lot of the dots. And just here, you know, here's how you scale. Here's how you spend a hundred thousand dollars a day on Facebook with one offer. And um, here's how you manage a variety of offers to, you know, to, to ultimately do what we're doing today. So man, it's, it's definitely been fun and just constantly optimizing, I think as an ad buyer, you are always making changes to your ad accounts and if you apply those rules to your life, you really start to see the quality of your life change as well. Just always stay optimizing, continue to change. You know, there's always like a, a slight tweak you can make to get a better result.

Rabah Rahil (13:59):

Love it. That's wonderful. What a, what a great way to wrap up the first segment. <laugh> all right. Fantastic. All right. Let's nerd out a little bit. So one of the things that you were talking about or um, the pillar of your presentation was kind of your builder campaign thesis. Can you kind of give people and I know it might be a little hard without the visuals, but kind of maybe a macro level overview of it. Cause I thought it was just really, really fascinating and quite frankly, really, uh, on the nose, I think it's one of the better strategies, if not the best out there.

Jourdan Smith (14:26):

Awesome dude, I appreciate the nod. Um, definitely appreciate it. We love using the builder internally. It's something that we've kind of developed over time. Shout out Zach Duncan and Jordan it's their brainchild. They kind of came together, have a, had a conversation and we really started to roll it out in our accounts. So it's uh, called the builder method and it's a great, great way to test creative. And it's a CBO campaign if you're not familiar with that that's campaign budget optimization. So you set the budget at the campaign level, um, and then you'll apply the, you know, ad sets to that campaign typically about four ad sets and uh, about four ads per ad set. So we like to run two images and two videos at the ad level and allow Facebook to determine which one of these ad sets is going to has the best performing creative.

Jourdan Smith (15:14):

So it's, it's, it's aligning the algorithm to do its thing, even though that's kind of, you know, it's a little shaky right now considering iOS 14 and how that whole roll out's gone this year, but the builder method is still standing strong. So let me go into a little bit more details about how this is structurally set up. So you guys can kind of have an idea. So I like personally like to start these, uh, builder campaigns off at $360 a day and we scale up from there. So there's four ad sets, four ads per ad set. And within each ad set is a unique ad angle, which is a high level approach to your product or service. And um, it allows the, those ad sets to have diversity along with the different creative testing you're going to be doing at the ad level. So you may be asking yourself like why $360, like everybody, every media buyer kind of has those special numbers that they like to refer to in their ad accounts, like use whatever that is for you 360 as mine's like, yeah, exactly.

Jourdan Smith (16:07):

Like <laugh>, this is where it's gonna go. You know, this is, this is just historically kind of what's worked best for me. So we've gone with 360. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and I let those campaigns run for a few days. Even like sometimes I do it at a loss because the results at the like in the long term can be very fruitful. Sure. So I just allow Facebook to determine what is my best performing ad sets. I kill my non-performers and uh, allow the performers to run. And every one to three days I'm introducing new creative to that campaign, whether it's a new ad angle or new, uh, media. So like, you know, new videos and images sure. And just constantly rotating stuff. And it's like feeding the beast, you're feeding the algorithm, the creative that it wants. And as it starts to have success, you're rewarding it with more budget. So every time I'm adding new creative, I'm also bumping the budget as long as the campaign is successful.

Maxx Blank (16:55):

So how, how much do

Jourdan Smith (16:56):

You, like I look to do it like 20%, every one to three days to kind of keep it steady if I'm feeling like really aggressive and it's a, and it's an account that has the wiggle room and I need to scale it fast. Sometimes I'll even double budgets and like, just to see how it, how it will respond to that. Not every ad account's going to respond in the positive way. So you kind of have to, you know, have a great intuition about that account and what it's doing before you decide to like really, really be aggressive with it. But yeah, man, there's definitely times where I've bumped like, you know, two X, two and a half in a day and just like, and let it ride and do its thing. And then maybe because I'm adding multiple assets or I just really want this spin to be delivered.

Jourdan Smith (17:36):

Um, so that's, you know, CBO kind of controls where that money's gonna get allocated, which is some people have, um, uh, disagreements with that, with that testing in that way, because the, the money is not being, being allocated the same way every day. So we do have an ABO version of this as well that we also run, but we really, it depends on what the account likes cuz I've, I've come to find that every ad account kind of prefers different structures. It's like, no two thumbprints are the same, no two ad accounts are the same. Like each one of these kids are different. That's so true. So you really have to apply that level of thinking to each one, like, okay, how does CBO perform in this ad account? How does ABO perform in this ad account? Is it like, you know, what structure does it like and see and see what works best

Maxx Blank (18:19):

Can, can I ask a quick question regarding retargeting? How do you approach that method with retargeting and, and CBOs? I think RA we've talked about

Jourdan Smith (18:26):

This before. So I do have like, I, I have another campaign structure that kind of incorporates remarketing in a CBO format. Uh, but typically like in Q4 right now or not Q4 just since I was 14 has been released, we're marketing audiences have not been as strong. So we're really thinking, thinking about it differently, pooling together as many of our remarketing audiences as we can so that we are creating the biggest opportunity for the algorithm to go through and search and find those buyers that we're looking for. So I don't run remarketing as much as I probably should cuz I'm, I'm really focused on culture acquisition and just acquiring new new customers and bringing new people into these brands. Um, but we do tap into remarketing, especially if our, our targets are, are aggressive and like, Hey, we really need to hit our margins. Aren't the, aren't the strongest. We really need to hit these numbers. So we'll introduce remarketing to help, you know, bring down that blended CPA or bring down that or, or boost up the, the blended ROAS. So we will definitely introduce it when necessary, but we're typically grouping as many remarketing audiences together as we can.

Maxx Blank (19:33):

I just learned something.

Jourdan Smith (19:34):


Rabah Rahil (19:35):

So yeah, I think that's a wonderful way to approach it and we actually take it a step further, um, because to your point, um, we have to be very conscientious on a lot of these economics. So I have a client that I don't run any retargeting for because mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, it's a $50 AOV. And so by the time I touch these people and it's retargeting, like it's just not, you know, the juicing ain't worth the squeeze. I need to be able to get these prospecting people and maybe get these other people through email. Definitely what have you. But, um, we'll actually throw cost controls on those different audiences. So, so for example, we might have three people in a retargeting audience and one's like web traffic the last 30 days, one's add to cart last 30 days and one's played with Instagram or, or, you know what I mean, touch social in some sort of way mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and then we'll throw cost controls where we know that, um, the retargeting, um, for add to carts is gonna be very, very viable and those people are gonna be worth more money to us.

Rabah Rahil (20:24):

But that way we can also modulate where, um, it just doesn't burn a bunch of money on a really bad day. Um, because that's one of our nightmares is like burning, like burning retargeting budget is just like brutal. Like that money has to convert two to three X prospecting to pay off, like it can't be coming in the same prospecting. You're touching these people multiple times. So, um, yeah. I love that. What are your thoughts

Jourdan Smith (20:47):

To touch on that real quick before we go to the next thing? Yeah, yeah. Love it. Um, I am running like an educational, I love education offer where I'm seeing exactly that I'm using Hiro. It's a, uh, uh, info products. It's a little bit different. It's a, it's a book of call funnel. My remarketing converts way less than my cold traffic. The return on it's like a 1, 4 15. I do it cuz it gives me like a nice blended call book cost. Like it helps stabilize the overall cost, uh, for book calls of the ecosystem. But it's nowhere near as profitable as my cold traffic. And I, I see that on a lot of the E eco offers that I buy it for as well. And it's just, it's very weird how that, how remarketing is kind of taken a turn for the worst. So what we've done to kind of combat that in a lot of our accounts is like running what we call like we, we use full funnel for two different things, but this way we're just not using any exclusions in our ads.

Jourdan Smith (21:35):

Um, so no exclusions at top of funnel Facebook's first time impression ratio is gonna be a little bit lower anyway, like they're already remarketing to people that have had the touchpoint with your brand. So it's like, you're kind of getting the remarketing inside of your cold traffic campaigns because Facebook is going to show these ads to the same audiences again. So like we like to run that just because like, cuz we don't need to tap into remarketing as much and we're not seeing the returns as strong as they used to be, uh, post iOS 14. So that's kind of how we're also picking up on, on some of like where we would be spending remarketing dollars at is now in our cold traffic.

Rabah Rahil (22:09):

I absolutely love that. That's actually was my next question about exclusions cuz that's exactly what I found where um, cuz, and again, this gets into kind of like that we'll call 'em like the algo maxes, right? Where it's like the algorithm does everything and uh, you know, I'm probably closer to that than the manual side of things. But um, I, I do just think that at a certain point, those exclusions become cuz my thesis is that if Facebook can't be certain that this isn't, this, these exclusions aren't gonna hit, it's just gonna dump you outta the auction because you don't want to. And so as you start to cuz I used to be that nested lookalike guy where you're like these crazy things, 77 fucking exclusions, like what are you doing here? There's one person that's gonna see this damn ad. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's like, what's the point? There's a fine balance.

Jourdan Smith (22:57):

You know,

Speaker 4 (22:58):

There's like a fine balance. How crazy you go. Exactly,

Rabah Rahil (23:00):

Exactly. For sure. But to be fair, what I was trying to get at was that at a certain point, the algorithm will even stop showing that person the ad because they're not converting what, whatever audience they're in kind of thing. And so, um, you're gonna fall outta that. Person's retargeting audience or, and so, um, that's been actually my preference the way you're describing as well, Jordan, where I think that's for me been the most viable path forward and I have less, um, it inhibits scale less mm-hmm <affirmative> because as I start to find pockets of success, the ask is so big. It's just that my sales people are getting better. My estimated action rates are going up like, and so I'm just winning more auctions. And so I can give it more money versus, you know, you sell everybody out in your room, AKA a custom or an interest group. Mm-hmm <affirmative> what are you gonna, or some, you know, tiger global comes in and just drops down a hundred million just to test out the group. You're not gonna beat those, those bids. You're not gonna get any impressions.

Jourdan Smith (23:49):

Definitely. Yeah dude. I agree, man. And it's just one of those things that a lot, I think people are starting to see and you, you see the murmurs in the groups like, you know, what are you guys doing for remarketing, you know, exclusions, I'm doing this and trying that and it's just not giving them the same results that they were. So you really do have to kind of rethink your strategy, um, going forward, especially in 2021 and going forward into 2022, you kind of re have to rethink how you're setting up your, your campaigns and how you're structuring things. And also the big like creative, you really have to focus on creative. Thankfully at motif we have like a very strong creative department. We have some very smart people at the agency as well that can focus on the creative and nail it down and really gimme some powerful stuff to use in my ad accounts. So I can focus on what I'm good at. Hm. And that's uh, that's by media at scale. So it's, it, it, it's, it's awesome to have talented people, uh, and very smart people as well that are focused on the right things so that you can be more successful at what you're good at.

Rabah Rahil (24:48):

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. What are, uh, kind of the, or not kind of what are like two or three metrics that you really like to look at in terms of account level or like how do you measure the health of your, uh, accounts?

Jourdan Smith (25:02):

Got you. So that's like, <laugh>, there's a few message text. Yeah, exactly. There's probably more than two or three. I did cover some, the three numbers specifically at geek out that I can kind of touch on a little bit here mm-hmm <affirmative> but mainly when I'm looking, I, I do look at my soft metrics a lot. I don't think, uh, people give enough credibility to your soft metrics, those metrics you still have control over. At least Facebook still has control over those metrics. Once the traffic leaves the, the, uh, the platform, it's a lot harder for the signals to come back to the platform. So the algorithm can learn from that. So there's just less control you have over the less visibility you have inside of the out account. Um, yep. So some of those soft metrics are, um, three second scroll stop, which is the three second video plays divided by impressions multiplied by 100.

Jourdan Smith (25:51):

Or if you're creating a custom metric, you can change the format to percentage and don't have to multiply CTR. All that's gonna tell you kind of how engaging your ads are. The three second scroll, stop ratios, gonna tell you how, like, alright, what is, how engaging is your video? Like, how does it cause the enough pattern interruption? Is it really stopping the user in its tracks? And then you, it gives your percentage of like how many people are actually staying and watching those first three seconds. So it's a great way to really see how, um, how engaging your, your video ads are. Yep. And then unique outbound CTR is the third one. So we call those the magic numbers. When you have, when you hit all three of those numbers, the right way, you see a dramatic decrease in outbound click cost, which on the same premium traffic.

Jourdan Smith (26:35):

So we showed some examples at geek out where our, uh, we did a lot of testing. We did all the campaign structure. We did all of the, the manual bid testing. We did so much copywriting. We tried literally everything. We exhausted so much. Then we started focusing on the first three seconds of, of the video, creative and, and just really creating, engaging hooks and noticed that these, those metrics that I just mentioned, um, when they hit certain thresholds, they cause a dramatic decrease in outbound click costs. And the CPMs were actually higher. It was like $32 CPMs versus like 28 or $26 CPMs. So it was just a great example of like, Hey, this is what's possible. Or it, this is our theory. When you kind of focus on creating more engaging content, you can drive down the cost of what it, what it, yeah.

Jourdan Smith (27:20):

Drive down the expense of what it costs to send the traffic off of Facebook. And that's ultimately what, like the most control you have right now, uh, with iOS 14, with the algorithm being all shaken up because of all the signal loss. If you can decrease the cost that, uh, to leave the platform, then you can ultimately get better results in your funnel if you're still paying for the same quality traffic. So you're just, it, it costs less for the, for you to get visitors and eyeballs on in your funnel. And if everything else is set up right, then it should still kind of convert how you would expect it to. Um, but this does not mean like high engagement equals high ROAS, just because you have very engaging ads doesn't mean they're gonna give you a return, but you compare those engaging metrics with the high return ads and start to scale those up.

Jourdan Smith (28:07):

Like I can reliably scale this. If my click cost has decreased by anywhere from like, you know, 60 to 75%, and I can reliably scale into that and, and, and hit my targets that I'm looking for, even without being able to see all of the funnel movement, you know, you still get some, some data back to Facebook and you can use third party attribution to really see what's going on inside of the ad account, or have a better picture of like, what's actually driving results. But when you have like, okay, look inside of your ad account, this data is being tracked back. I see a high return on this ad. I see a very engaging ad. Let me go try and scale. It

Rabah Rahil (28:47):

Love that. Yeah. That's uh, and I'm glad you touched on that point that not all engaging ads are, um, converting and the, the problem with those is, or the, the worst part about those is they will absolutely churn and burn your budget, um, because people are engaging with it that's case who cares about like Facebook cares about people, estimated action rate, essentially, as you have your bid, your estimated action rate and your internal external rankings, that's how your total values calculated. And I, so we have a client where we'll test on social, and then when stuff hits on social, we'll just move it into the ad account. And, you know, there's a lot that happens. That's great, but I have to be really wary because if it's something that's awesome and it's just getting a ton of engagement, but it's not getting any, you know, content views or through the roof in terms of cost, there might be one add to cart, but it's spent 50% of the budget. You're just like, what the hell? Um, so I, I love that, but yeah, definitely. Um, when you, you do do that, be cautious, cuz you can, uh, lose your shirt real quick and, and not get anything for it.

Jourdan Smith (29:47):

Yes, definitely. That happens a lot. Like, uh, so I geek out, I can't remember the name of the company, but a lot of people are, are focused on U GC right now. And there's a lot of, uh, brands that are, are businesses out there delivering U GC to brands. But a lot of 'em focus on the organic side. They're not really thinking about how do I create UGC that converts for paid traffic. And that's because like you can have really engaging UGC, really great, beautiful looking UGC, but it doesn't convert. It. It does exactly what you just said. It does. Like what, what you just explained it, it gets high engagement metrics on the platform. Facebook's like, oh great. You can win auctions with this. They spend a bunch of money, but you get no return on it. It just bleeds through your budget. Um, and that can happen when you, you give the algorithm complete control over like testing things or you're not really, uh, being as involved in the creative testing process as you should be or not looking at the right metrics, I should say. Uh, when you can see those metrics, all right, this isn't backing out. Facebook's obviously spending a bunch of money on this, engaging creative. Let me go ahead and kind of turn it off or remove it from the testing pool. So that then the rest of my stuff does get, um, you know, a fair share of the budget.

Rabah Rahil (30:50):


Maxx Blank (30:51):

How would you, uh, or what would you recommend someone who's producing U GC for Facebook ads? What is the best type if U GC that converts for, for

Jourdan Smith (30:59):

Facebook? That is a definitely a great question. I am not the best creative guy to explain that, but I can definitely give some insights on it. Um, typically what we've seen is kind of like, uh, box reveals. So we do work with a few subscription offers yep. Going through the box, showing the product packaging, going through that customer journey of what they're going to get when they receive it. And then also like showing off those products. So one thing that we've done recently is kind of do that box opening in an environment that that product kind of pertains to. So it's like an outdoor, for example, it's like an outdoor subscription offer, um, taking that box to the woods and showing, okay, here are the different products that you get in the subscription offer. Here's how you can use them so on and so forth.

Jourdan Smith (31:41):

But just being in an environment that thatty the customer would be in when they're using the product. So like the setting makes the most sense. Um, and it, it also causes like pattern interrupt, cuz you're not just sitting in your room, opening up this box and going through it. You're actually in a different environment that the user, the Facebook user is not going to be used to like looking at an ad, like why is this person in the woods? Why, what are they doing here? They're gonna naturally ask questions about what's going on in this ad versus just like, oh, that's just somebody's room or that's somebody's bathroom or that's their kitchen table, you know, just typical settings that they expect from ads and uh, what they experience. So it's just really thinking creatively like, okay, how can we switch this up? How can we cause pattern interrupt with this UDC? And it's just, uh, maybe explaining that to, uh, the influencers or whoever you may be working with to, uh, to create this U GC

Rabah Rahil (32:35):

Sensational answer. All right, Jordan, you made it for through the first two sections. That's easy money, but now max is gonna take you through rapid fire where we'll ask you, uh, a few fun questions and then, uh, we'll wrap up the pod, take away max,

Jourdan Smith (32:48):

Let let's get into it.

Maxx Blank (32:51):

Let's roll. Okay. CPMs, overrated, or

Jourdan Smith (32:54):

Under it? Um, I would say underrated. I hear a lot of people, not con like they don't care about their CPM pricing, but CPMs can tell you a lot. Uh, I recently was buying an offer over. I know this is like a rapid fire thing. I'm sorry for going into it. No, no, no,

Rabah Rahil (33:06):

No. This is the point. Yeah, go into it. Beautiful.

Jourdan Smith (33:09):

So yeah, definitely underrated. A lot of people don't care about their CPMs or don't think about them. Um, intrinsically like there's way more value to CPMs and what meets the eye. So if you do pay attention to it, you kind of have an understanding of what's going on. Like for example, images versus video, typically images are gonna give you a lower CPM videos are gonna give you a higher CPM. But if you see the inverse of that, then you can learn something from it. Or if you're having really high CPMs in your account, you have to dig down and understand why, cuz that's kind of like Facebook's charging you on a, on an impression basis. So like that's really where a lot of your costs is baked into. So if you can get lower CPMs, but still have like premium traffic, um, or you just engage with those higher CPMs, like you have a really engagement. There's just so much. I want to explain here. It's like, I'm getting all over the place, but basically we can have you, you can learn a lot from, we can, we can have you contribute, you know, like this,

Maxx Blank (34:02):

This is, it's a

Jourdan Smith (34:03):

Phenomenal stuff. There's just so much, so much to learn from CPMs. Like it can dictate your funnel movement. It can tell you like, okay, maybe you're not using the right creative or you're targeting audiences that are just really expensive and you need to find another way to bring down those CPMs. So the rest of your funnel movement is cheaper. Um, or just like, it, it, it gives you great valuable insights. Like there there's ways you're uh, basically here are like the four levers. I've kind of explained this a few times to people, but here are the things I notice that kind of impact your CPM pricing, the creative you're using the URLs you're using the Facebook page you're using and the ad accounts you're using. And there may be other variables that control that. But those four kind of have like big lifts in controlling the price of your CPM.

Jourdan Smith (34:45):

So if you're seeing like a hundred plus dollars CPMs, maybe you need to change your ad account, change your URL. If you're seeing like CPMs are like 20, 30, 40% higher on average, then it's like, maybe look at your creative and switch that up. How can you apply changes to your creative to bring the CPM pricing down? So the rest of your funnel movement is. And so, so price is so expensive, especially if you don't have high engaging ads. Like I had $150 CPMs in an account on average, over a hundred over like 14, 15 grand spent. And I was like, how can I combat this? Like my ads are extremely engaging. Six, 7% CTR, all unique outbound CTR is like above a 3% great metrics. Like I it's hard to come by stuff like that in modern day Facebook. So I'm like looking at the CPM pricing.

Jourdan Smith (35:26):

Like I can't win here, even though my I'm still meeting my CPA, like, uh, KPI. Like I, I was still meeting the, uh, purchase price that I needed to hit in the account. I was still just facing extremely high CPM. So I needed a way to bring those down. I changed the ad account, changed the URL. I brought it down by 18% more manageable, but it's hard to scale into an offer with $150 CPMs on images and videos. And like I even changed Facebook pages and it didn't really do anything. So I'm like, well, the next big thing I need to do is change my ad ad account. And

Maxx Blank (35:57):

I can understand the other, like through the factors that you mentioned as to what would the, you know, impact the CPM, but why does the Facebook page impact the CPM

Jourdan Smith (36:06):

From your perspective? Uh, that one, I don't have like an direct and Robert, you might be able to like explain like a deeper answer on that. Good. Well,

Rabah Rahil (36:12):

I don't know if this, for sure. This is just my thesis. So your page has like for, uh, lack of a better term, like an authority ranking, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so if you get your hand slapped yeah. Or you do these things, it goes on your record. And so Facebook cares outside of like, unless you're on the hot track where you just spend a bunch of money, you can do what you want. Um, like you have, if you have to play by the real rules, Facebook seriously cares about the content that goes in the feed because if Facebook loses engagement, they lose ad inventory. So the less engagement there are, there are less ads they can serve, cuz there's a certain ad load that people will tolerate, right? Like everything can't be an ad. And so Facebook modulates that, but there's a ceiling. And so the only way for them to really make more money, they don't, they can't move the CPMs cuz it's an auction.

Rabah Rahil (36:52):

So the only way they make more money is, um, have more inventory. And so the more people that log on, I can show more ads. So, um, that's my thesis is that all those things kind of go into some sort of like score of your page. So I, I worked with a really big brand, uh, big, big, big brand, like uh, personality type celebrity. And we had huge issues, um, because they kept going, getting in Facebook jail for either doing sketchy stuff on, uh, messenger, um, stuff like that, where it wasn't directly linked to like ads proper mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but the account is you run ads from a page. Right. And so that gotcha. And so that's my thesis. Anyways, Jesus got into the craziest, this is like a second segment of wrapping fire, but it's so good. We need to, we need to get a whale mail on your CPMs. Cause I, I, I love that man. That's that's incredible. But um, sorry. We'll come back and land the plane as, as they say, right max. Um, so CPMs, underrated, boom

Jourdan Smith (37:44):

<laugh> <laugh>

Maxx Blank (37:47):

Wow. Okay. This is good. Great stuff, Jordan. Okay. Co, I feel like this next one might open up another box too. All right. Let's do it cost controls overrated

Jourdan Smith (37:56):

Or under, under underrated one, maybe like you said, there, I view cost controls in two ways you have like manual bids as in like, uh, cost caps and bid caps. I haven't seen stability with you either of those lately, but you can also like if you're in a CBO campaign, you can set men and max values, uh, minimum spin values and max spin values on your ad sets to kind of control how that spin gets allocated as well. So, and I don't think a lot of people utilize that to their advantage, especially if you're in a CBO creative testing environment, you can apply those rules so that each asset gets a fair share of spin every day mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that there's like some consistent allocation, some consistent impressions, um, on those creatives. So it's kind of fair. Cause like the CBO, like Facebook that Facebook algorithm can decide where it wants to go with your money and a CBO.

Jourdan Smith (38:43):

And I do enjoy that aspect of it because it allows the algorithm to find what's going to perform best or what's going to, you know, win auction. What is it? How can it get, you know, serve the most people with that adset or that ad, but it doesn't necessarily always work out. It doesn't mean that that ad's gonna give you the best conversions or give you the best return. Um, but setting those, um, men values and max values will, or, or even using cost caps, um, or just even going ABO just gives you more control over how much money is allocated towards that ad towards that ad. So that it's just your, your results are a little bit more, uh, statistically relevant.

Rabah Rahil (39:21):

That's awesome.

Maxx Blank (39:23):

Okay, Hailey, this will go fast, I think, but we'll see, although all this stuff is really interesting and super technical. I think it's great. So are yo Yosemite, overrated or

Jourdan Smith (39:32):

Underrated? Yosemite? I've so that's one. Are we talking about the, uh, okay. The park? All I was wanna say, yeah, Apple's got their own version. <laugh> that one too. Sure. So yeah, the part I would say, like, I, I hate to be so consistent, but maybe underrated. Um, I haven't been personally, I know there's great cycling there. I've heard. So I definitely wanna go check that out and it's, uh, great views. I've become moving to California. I became more in touch with outdoors. It's more enjoyable to be outside here than it ever was in Florida. So it made me appreciate the environment and the opportunities we have at large in the world to go see things. So I think, um, if you haven't taken the time to get out in your life or are explore to go see something new, then like Yosemite's probably a great step. Uh, great first step. There's a lot of, it's a national park. It's going to have a lot of, um, uh, amenities to accommodate people to go visit whether it's Airbnb, whether there's tours, whether there's, you know, a camping excursions, there's just so much that you can do, uh, personally to go see something new and get outside. I think everybody should take advantage of that. Sure.

Rabah Rahil (40:39):

I love it. Nature. Nature.

Jourdan Smith (40:40):

Nature. Yeah. <laugh>

Maxx Blank (40:44):

Okay. Bike lanes overrated

Jourdan Smith (40:46):

Or on. Oh, okay. So here we go. Another underrated one bike lane. I ride my bike all the time. <laugh> so bike in the state of California bike lanes are the they're awesome. They're so wide. I feel safe. Riding here. I don't feel safe riding in Florida. I never really rode my bike outside of my residential neighborhood growing up. But as I became an adult, it was just like, I'm not getting out on these streets, but coming to California, I saw how much infrastructure was here to support cyclist or anybody riding a bike period. And it just, it, it, it, it incentivized commuting on two wheels. So that's, I, I definitely think they're an underrated thing and should be deployed across the country as a, as a driver. I can understand where the frustration comes from, but you should definitely get out on a bike and experience it for yourself. Cuz then you'll probably look at it differently through a different lens. You won't be so aggravated with people on a bike because you understand what they get from riding. You know,

Rabah Rahil (41:41):

Empathy is a powerful drug. I actually, uh, didn't have a car for a couple years and I, I rode my bike. Um, before I got a boosted board, there you go. Just riding like two or three times and like encountering the like it'll totally change how you actually, uh, think of cyclists. Yeah. A

Jourdan Smith (41:56):

Hundred percent would. Yes, definitely. Definitely. And here people are just like, they're used to them, you know, in Florida I would get honks. People would yell at me. Um, you know, they just, they, they, they don't know how to kind of treat cyclists on the road. So they get very skittish as well, which can be dangerous to other drivers here. They're just a lot more comfortable with other people on the road, different types of, I guess, vehicles, if you will, on the roll on the road. So it it's, it's a more comforting environment to ride my bike here than if I compare it to other areas that don't have the infrastructure.

Rabah Rahil (42:26):


Maxx Blank (42:30):

All right, here we go. Um, I don't know what this means, but

Rabah Rahil (42:34):

I'm assuming it thing

Maxx Blank (42:35):

You guys do. Yeah. <laugh> prime lens overrated

Jourdan Smith (42:38):

Or under it. Oh man. Okay. I'm just going underrated on everything here. <laugh> <laugh> like, so with, with the background in portraits and even shooting cars, like I think prime lense is they make you move your feet. You you're not gonna get the frame. You're not gonna be able to frame the shot exactly how you want to. It's gonna make you think outside of the box. It's it's it's I can compare it to an ad account in the sense that, um, it just forces you to be innovative in, in what you're creating. So the way I look at how I manage campaigns, it's an, it's my current modern day art form photography was my art form and my creative expression indeed. When I was doing it. And now it's, it's buying ads and, and thinking of campaign structures in a way that in a innovative way and just creating something new.

Jourdan Smith (43:21):

It's my cam blank canvas and every ad account, every ad, account's a blank canvas and I have to go in there and, and, and create something beautiful. So I, I, I view, you know, you can look at prime lenses the same way. Like you, you have to be innovative. You have to think about things differently to go and get results. You can't just like, oh, let me zoom in here. Let me just, you know, angle a little bit differently. And I got my shot and it's like, no, you gotta walk over there. You have to look at it through the camera you have to, is the framing good? Is my lighting on point? You just think about so much more in that process. And you're like, to me, I'm more proud at the end of result. Um, but if I'm like shooting a wedding or something, definitely, uh, non-prime lenses, you know, I need my zoom <laugh> cause if wedding weddings are crucial moments, so you, you really need to be everywhere at once with that. Um, and even like live events as well. So, but when it's like portraits or, and anything I can slow down on portraits automotive, uh, for photography, I, I like to shoot primes. They're just crisp, clear images. Um, you get a nice, uh, uh, focal range as well. So it's, it's all, it's all good.

Maxx Blank (44:25):

All right. I'm learning a lot today. I'm noting a lie. Uh, okay. What's your favorite

Jourdan Smith (44:29):

Camera? My favorite camera. I mean, I personally have a can fived mark three. I know it's dated in 2021, but I love full frame cameras. I am looking at at a mirrorless body. Not sure if I want to go Sony. I've heard great things about Fuji as well. Um, so just really looking for the next, cause I do wanna get back into photography. I want to have kind of like a, a walk around camera, but my 5g mark three is just heavy. Like it it's, it's a massive camera. There's carrying everything, all the gear around for it's bulky. So I do want something that can like throw on my shoulder, um, or, or wrap it behind my back and go ride and take pictures of the area. But at the same time, these are also expensive cameras. So if you, you know, if you fall, like you're not only breaking your potentially breaking your bike, but you gotta break the camera too. And then he just sent a whole lot of money. So that's yeah. Class. Yeah. Yeah, man. So it just doesn't stop there. The, the, the potential to ruin some expensive things is high <laugh>.

Maxx Blank (45:22):

Mm. Favorite meal. And why

Jourdan Smith (45:25):

Favorite meal? Huh? Man. Oh man. Do. I'm a big foodie. So I've recycling has helped me combat weight loss tremendously. I, you know, when I first got into it, I lost like 50 pounds pretty quickly. Like within the first, like, you know, four or five months, I, I dropped so much weight. So being growing up in the south, there's a lot of food options. So honestly narrowing it down to one thing. I probably can't. But right now, um, Asian food is, is a huge plus in my life. I, I do enjoy it. Oh yeah. Um, there's this, uh, city called Claremont and a little bit closer to San Diego. Um, and there's just a lot of Asian food, Asian culture in that area that I, I do frequent. It's like a 30 minute drive for me, but I go out there pretty often and, and check it out and get some food down there.

Rabah Rahil (46:12):

That's awesome.

Maxx Blank (46:14):

Great. Favorite picture taken.

Jourdan Smith (46:17):

Favorite picture taken. So is it honestly, it's just one in San Francisco, uh, took it like probably what they call referred to as the golden hour. Um, beautiful scene, beautiful landscape shot. And I, I, you know, I love it. I love it. I love it. And I, I haven't gotten it printed, but it's definitely something that I want to, and it's like when I think of a landscape shot, my favorite just shot to date. That's the first thing that popped in my head. It's just like, I remember that. I remember, you know, it wasn't really a climb. It's just like a scenic outlook. So there's a lot of people up there, but I remember the day pretty vividly and like just how I felt about the scene. And it's just like, man, California is beautiful. So that was like my first experience. My first time in California, I was there for a week actually taking photos for a rental car agency that I worked for at the time. Um, kind of leveraging photography with social media marketing and stuff like that. Yeah. But, uh <laugh> yeah, so that's, it, it all lended down to the, or led to this path, but yeah, man, it was just a, a beautiful time for me to grab that shot. And I, I think about it pretty often.

Rabah Rahil (47:18):

That's fantastic. We'll link to it. Is it on your Instagram?

Jourdan Smith (47:21):

Um, let's see.

Rabah Rahil (47:23):

We'll we'll, we'll drop a link in the show notes.

Jourdan Smith (47:25):

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. If not, I can send it to you. It was on my Twitter for a little bit, but I'm also, like I said, just dark in the dark with, uh, most media killer silent killer. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> so it may not be up there. Let's see. Let's see, let's see, I'm scrolling through it now. Iactually don't think I posted it, but I definitely put it on Twitter cuz landscape shots you like, unless you're like a landscape photographer and that's what you do. Yeah, yeah. Then it was, it is a little bit tougher to incorporate it, but I'll find it and send it to you for sure. So you can drop a link to it in the show notes. <laugh>

Maxx Blank (48:00):

<laugh> favorite place to travel to

Jourdan Smith (48:02):

Why? Uh, salt lake city, Utah. Um, even though I've been out in California, that's probably a weird one. Uh, I've really enjoyed my time in salt lake city. So working for this rental car company, I got to go to various, um, locations and take photos so we could use for social media. So I was, you know, I had a, a rental car and a few days to just go out and grab photos. And that was like my mission and salt lake city, uh, at the, I was still living in Florida at the time. Wasn't really an outdoorsy person at all, but I spent my entire time outdoors, um, just like going to see things climbing in the mountains, just like, bro, this place is beautiful. Like I, it, you know, just really made me appreciate nature so much more. So definitely one of those cities that I think people it's got its stereotypes, for sure. I'm sure people are kind of like, ah, I don't know if I would want to go to salt lake city or B in Utah, but I think Utah's probably one of those like underrated states. Um, totally agree. And in terms of just like just outdoor beauty, like you, you didn't, don't realize what's there and like what, what is the allure to, to Utah? And then you go there for the first time and it's like, wow, this place is beautiful.

Maxx Blank (49:04):

Totally agree. Wow. Your favorite follow on

Jourdan Smith (49:08):

Twitter. Favorite follow on Twitter. Let's see. I'm gonna, I'm heavy into crypto right now. So I'd say like Alex Becker <laugh> max is crypto maxes. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (49:21):

I could see the laser beams coming out of both of your eyes.

Jourdan Smith (49:23):

<laugh> so, and, and that's awesome. Mainly because I, I have experience with Hiro and like, I, I understand his online personality can be a bit of like a, it will ruffle a lot of feathers. It is like a personality online. I don't think he's like that personally, but a lot of the advice that he has, um, you know, promoted in his videos or in his tweets has made me some money. So like I just out of my experience, like, okay, cool. That's a nod to Alex Becker. He's put me on some, some interesting project projects and uh, also some interesting NFTs. So definitely, you know, gotten to some great opportunities because of him. Um, I would say, uh, Alex Becker and, and Ellio trades I think is how you pronounce his name. Um, but yeah, it just gave me new concepts to look at the crypto projects through new lenses to view these projects through. So I'm making sound decisions. Um, and that's kind of like what I like people that give conceptual advice. Like here's how you can go apply it on your own instead of just telling you exactly what to do.

Rabah Rahil (50:28):

Definitely. That's awesome.

Maxx Blank (50:31):

Okay. Here we go. Um, okay. If you could have dinner with any three people dead or alive, who would it be? This is a final question.

Jourdan Smith (50:43):

<laugh> uh, let's see. Nipsey hustle for sure. Cause that's like one of my favorite favorite artists. He, um, he inspired the hustle in me at a young age, so I definitely gotta, gotta give him his not there. Um, let's see who else? Oh man. I know I shouldn't like draw blanks there, but that is, he's got a lot of influence on me. Um, who else can you just like leverage? Uh, mm-hmm <affirmative> leverage good relationships with that. I kind of like look up. I don't know, man. It's kind of hard. It's kind of, it's a hard one. Nip. I gotta give the nod too, cuz like I listen to his music every day and it's definitely gotten me through some tough times. Like as far as like on my entrepreneur and journey, it's just like, you gotta keep pushing kind, keep going. Um, times are always gonna be rough and tough. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but you know, as long as you push through the adversity, you come out stronger on the other end and thankful that you didn't give up. Ooh, what can I say about the other two though? Hmm. Oh man. I'm drawing blanks. I

Rabah Rahil (51:49):

We'll we'll leave it. We'll leave it option. It'll just be the you nip at the table. Yeah.

Jourdan Smith (51:53):

Chopping it out for sure. For sure. For sure. There's others, but I'm just drawing blanks right now.

Rabah Rahil (51:57):

<laugh> no, totally, totally understand. We've been, we've been going for almost 50 minutes, so let's wrap it up, Jordan. Um, are you guys taking clients? Do you wanna tell us a little bit more about motif? How can people get involved?

Jourdan Smith (52:07):

Definitely. Okay. So motif is a performance marketing agency with a huge focus on creative. We are currently open to new opportunities. Um, so especially going into Q4, if you guys are looking to, you know, get some, make the best of Q4 and you know, definitely reach out, um, we're full service, we handle creative, we handle ad buying. Um, and we can get you guys. I think SMS is one thing that we're, we're looking to introduce, but we'll see how that goes down the road because a lot of people are looking for great remarketing opportunities through email and SMS, but primarily paid traffic is our thing. So if you guys are looking for paid traffic on Facebook, Amazon, Google, you know, let us know. Um, you know, we spend what's

Rabah Rahil (52:51):

The best way to connect.

Jourdan Smith (52:53):

So O U O N [email protected] My name, my name is Jordan Smith. There's two Jordans at the agency. It's better than referring to us as white Jordan, black Jordan <laugh> but that is like the, the <laugh> about that one. But yeah, my name is spelled J O U R D a N. So O U at motif, M O T I f.digital. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> is how you can reach me directly. Uh, we spent 8 million in Q3, so we've definitely been hit by the iOS 14, but still scaling in a lot of cases. So I think we have a, a lot that we can offer to, um, brands looking to navigate this space right now or having a hard time. Um, definitely would love the conversation.

Rabah Rahil (53:36):

Wonderful. All right, folks, you heard it here. O U M OT I f.com and uh, hit him up digital. Oh, dot digital. Oh, the top, top level domains missed it. Yes. I we'll put in the show nights. The show notes. Appreciate it as well. Um, thanks everybody for joining us. This is our, our seventh episode. It's been incredible having you, if you wanna get more involved, a triple whale, uh, you can follow us on the bird app. We're at tri triple whale. Um, we also have a great newsletter called whale mail. You can subscribe right on our profile and then if you want to use the app, um, we're taking wait list. So just go to trial, triple well.com and get on the wait list and you can get in Jordan. Thanks so much for your time, max. It's always a pleasure. You guys we'll do it again soon. Seven in the bag. There

Jourdan Smith (54:17):

You go. 100% is great. Appreciate the opportunity. And uh, we'll see you guys out there online.

Rabah Rahil (54:23):

All right. Byebye, everybody.

Jourdan Smith (54:25):


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