I have my mind blown multiple times on this pod. John goes into the keys to success in marketing. The lessons he took away after working at a Mall Kiosk. How he structures his team. Why creatives might not be your biggest lever and more! Super epic pod.#ROAS
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Rabah Rahil (00:08):
3, 2, 1. Welcome back everybody. Episode number 12 of you are not your RO as today, we have a real treat for you. We have the marketing Maven, the send it Sivan, John Coyle. Welcome to the show.
John Coyle (00:21):
Thanks for having me. You know, I think that like, uh, the thing that you're supposed to say at the beginning of podcast is like, oh yeah, this is a long time coming. And like, I'm so glad we finally got to do this. I've had to be on my podcast, but second time I've talked to him in my life. And that's what they're saying. It's like what you're supposed to say, but we really did actually kind of have a hard time setting this up. So
Rabah Rahil (00:42):
Yeah. Yeah, there was definitely some, uh, difficulties in the scheduling all on my part. John has been a, a, a gem <laugh> and, and, and yeah, to your point, I have been a, uh, longtime listener first time caller. So this is really exciting, um, to have you on the show. So, uh, as always I'm out in Austin HQ, uh, max could not join us today. He is out tending to his chicken coop. Um, and so now you're stuck with just me and John, which is gonna be even more fun. So, John, where is this podcast find you today?
John Coyle (01:11):
Uh, yeah, I'm based in the salt lake city area in Utah. Uh,
Rabah Rahil (01:15):
John Coyle (01:15):
Beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm actually not that close to salt lake, but that's like the only place people know in Utah. So that's there. Yeah. That's the general vicinity,
Rabah Rahil (01:23):
Funny, random digression. I went to school in Indiana and a lot of people, um, came from up north, um, around Chicago, but it wouldn't, they, the towns kind of, wouldn't be noticeable. So they'd say you're from Chicago and then you're actually know the geography of the area. Like that's like two hours away from Chicago. I don't know if that's really from Chicago, but
John Coyle (01:41):
Honestly. Okay. So here here's the best way to contextualize where I live. Like you see the movie Napoleon dynamite.
Rabah Rahil (01:47):
John Coyle (01:48):
I live about 20 minutes away from that town. It's called Preston, Idaho 20 go out on the road, 20 minutes. I'm in Preston. So that's
Rabah Rahil (01:56):
Where I, oh my gosh. That's amazing. I got to do, uh, the narrows top down and we stayed in, in hurricane. Nice. Um, but that's a beautiful
John Coyle (02:04):
Now here in Utah, we call that hurricane. I don't know why
Rabah Rahil (02:07):
Hurricane. Oh, no, I'm already, I'm already losing my points. How long have you been in Utah?
John Coyle (02:12):
Uh, so I came here for college. I'm originally from the Spokane Washington area. Uh, again, not actually from I'm from COA, Idaho originally, but that's the place people know. Uh, and I, I came down here, uh, for college and haven't left. So shoot. It's been like 13 years now.
Rabah Rahil (02:29):
Oh, wow. That's awesome. What'd you study?
John Coyle (02:32):
Uh, I actually studied video production, so it's somewhat, I got a degree that's like somewhat relevant to my current field. Yeah. Which is a good time. I don't, I mean, I don't do any production at all, but you know, I don't speak the language, I guess. Uh, or at least I did few years ago,
Rabah Rahil (02:46):
So yeah. I love that. I find that super helpful kind of same boat of, I went to school for economics and I'm obviously not doing anything in finance or anything like that. So I love that. What was your first job?
John Coyle (02:57):
What's that? Yeah. Yeah.
Rabah Rahil (02:58):
<laugh> what was your first job?
John Coyle (03:00):
Yeah, so, uh, outta college, uh, we, and this is another thing I learned that we have and you and I have in common, uh, we're both distance mid-distance runners, both ran at the college level. Yeah. Uh, so I ran at, we state, uh, and I was like, kind of in this category, like, well, digress into running a little bit here. I was kind of in this category where I could run like, like a 4 0 3 mile, but also like a 29, 30, 10 K. So I wasn't really great at anything. I just had this like really good range. Um, so I wasn't, I didn't do anything like, but I wanted to run professionally after college. And, uh, so I got like a very small deal with Sketchers. Uh, so I guess you could say that was my first job. Uh, I was professional runner, but, but that that's, that small deal was like, let, let me stress small deal.
John Coyle (03:44):
<laugh> uh, it was like, they gave me some gear. Uh, sometimes they floated some travel for me sometimes. And, uh, they would, uh, they did some prize money matching, but they didn't actually pay me anything. So I also had to work full-time. Um, and the only thing I had experience doing up to that point, um, I had a, I mean, I had a degree, but the only thing I had experience doing, uh, was working in a running store. So I got a job managing a running store cuz I needed flexibility cuz I was trying to run, uh, professionally. And so I, I managed this running store and it's funny people like, uh, I was say like to marketers, like people who run traffic and it's like, why don't you just start your own brand, your, your own E eco brand or something like that. And uh, I'm like, because I managed a physical product store and I realized like, I literally hate everything about it.
John Coyle (04:31):
Like product management, logistical supplier, all of that stuff. Hated it. But like, uh, so that was 2014. I started running Facebook ads then to get people into my store. Um, and I, so, so like I kind of like fell in love with like the marketing and sales aspect of it. Um, so I'm not really like a product or logistics guy, but I remember like what kind of hooked me was, uh, I was having like this event at my store and uh, running stores have regional reps. So we had an Adidas regional rep. Uh, I qualify that because Adidas sponsored this event, but not like real Adidas, like our regional rep used some of her budget, uh, to sponsor this event. Um, some grassroots budget. And so, but like if nobody was like, how, how are we gonna get the word out? You know what I mean?
John Coyle (05:15):
So I, I started running these Facebook ads and I ran like a giveaway where, uh, you know, we were gonna like give away a free pair of shoes and you had to come to the event to win and Adidas actually kicked in and gave away some more stuff. But it was like this barbecue and like meet and run and stuff like that. And it was huge. Like so many people entered and then like so many people came like I, all I had to do was email 'em and Ryan, this 2014 people still opened their email. So like I just emailed him and reminded him. Uh, and like a ton of people came and a ton of people spent money in the store and that was like the hook, right. Like I was like, I did a thing and like, then, then people gave me money for it. Like that was, I think everybody who goes down the marketing journey has that moment of like, whoa. Uh, okay. I have a, I have a skill set here.
Rabah Rahil (06:01):
I, I love that. Yeah. And ironically enough too, I actually come from the, uh, shoe sales background after I got outta college. I, uh, didn't really know what I was gonna do with my life. And I had this fancy economics degree and I just needed money. So I had to sell a women's shoes. Uh, and it actually helped, helped, helped a ton. It was, uh, super
John Coyle (06:19):
Interesting. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like, uh, I, I mean, yeah, like it's anything sales, I think, super helpful. Right. You know, I know,
Rabah Rahil (06:28):
I, it sounds so cliche, but, uh, and I could be getting old too, so that might be it too, where I might be get off my lawn, but yeah, the, the ability to shape a narrative, um, E especially in media buying is just so powerful. Like, I mean, the data definitely tells you one thing, but there's also their layer of interpretation. That can be very valuable when you, you know how to do it. Right. I mean, honestly, that was for people don't know, John and I connected at, uh, a geek out, um, and he had one, just a killer killer presentation. And it was just your ability to synthesize all these incredibly disparate data points into a coherent narrative was, uh, incredibly compelling, really, really brilliant impress
John Coyle (07:04):
Stuff. Yeah. I think done in sales like that, that experience is valid to draw on, you know, whatever you're doing now, whether you co so like, but any kind of marketing thing. I had a job in college where like the, the tough one of the toughest sales jobs you'll ever have other than door to door, uh, mall kiosk. I was, I, I sold at a mall kiosk. Oh, I sold like this green tea supplement and legit, like, I, I kid you not, this is, this is, you wanna know, like, this was my click bait. I, I learned to when I grew up everyone in my town, this is super weird. Everyone in my town, like juggling was part of our elementary school thing that we, so we all knew how to juggle. I know how to juggle random thing about me. So I would, I would mix up some, some of the drinks I'd mix 'em up in water bottles and I'd juggle, 'em, I'd start juggling.
John Coyle (07:51):
'em when I noticed somebody watching me I'd catch it and be like, Hey, you wanna a sample? No, but then they're like, oh, you're not supposed to look at the law kiosk people, cuz they'll start selling something. So then they're hook and then usually they'd do something like, and then here's my, like, that was my hook. Here's my lead. They'd be like, yeah, sure. They'd reach their hand out to me. And I'd be like, and I'd pull it back. I physically pull it back and be like, oh, well this one's strawberry. Do you want a different flavor? I can show you the other flavors. And then they're like kind of already like, like leaned in. And like, I, I drew on that experience the other day of like, you know, just creating hooks, create like it. Well, I actually talked about that sales job last week to my team. Um, because there was like a different path. We would take people down based on what benefits they saw in, you know, in what the drink did and stuff like that. But like, yeah, it's, it's kind of wild. I think anything in sales it's like now I think about that. And I'm like literally the place where like nobody, everybody walks by the Mo kiosks, like don't look at, 'em just, yeah,
Rabah Rahil (08:50):
Don't make that
John Coyle (08:50):
So hard. They're not real people. Um, but like having to do something in that environment, like to get attention, uh, not dissimilar, I would say to our current advertising environment. Right.
Rabah Rahil (09:04):
Yeah. Or especially too, when you layer on seasonality where like that's where we always joke. Right. Like in the down months is when the real markers will make cuz that's when you need the awesome creative and that's when you need like the really clever offers and ideas because yeah, it's super challenging. I, I love that. And again, it's like a brother from another mother. I was also a mall rat. And so it was really, uh, interesting and helpful to see like being able to build these little thesis in your head. And when you're a kid, you know, you don't understand like the logic or the fancy nomenclature or academic stuff behind it, but you, no, you gotta the same man. It's, it's just wrapped in a fancy bow and um, you know, uh, what is that a sport jacket with, uh, <laugh> the elbow pads on it, but yeah, it's, it's the same stuff and like the economics, the way the people understand.
Rabah Rahil (09:48):
And yeah, there's a certain aspect of me. It's like, I don't think everybody should run their own business, but I do think everybody should start their own business and try it for a little bit because like all the stuff that you shit on, you get it, like once you get into like, like I'm moving into this CMO role and I've always been this like really, really strong individual contributor, uh, ICS, like the corporate jargon. And I'm just realizing like goals and like what quote unquote work looks like for leaders totally different than an IC. Oh yeah. And, and it's just this, this huge, massive shift. And I used to coming from both of eyes like sports backgrounds, like if you're the captain you're usually the most prominent or you have, you you're the best player lead quote unquote. Right.
John Coyle (10:28):
Just lead by example. That's all you gotta do. Yeah.
Rabah Rahil (10:31):
And I don't know if that was like always the, the right move where so pay lay for the, uh, Brazilian team was, uh, most wonderful soccer player ever. And he wasn't even the captain and the Brazil's coach reasoning was like, the captain needs to, he has all this baggage that comes with it. You need to keep the team together. You need to where, and maybe the best, most talented person isn't necessarily the right person for that job. And that's what I'm seeing now where I used to not judge. But again, I come from a little more technical background. So a lot of like how I would layer value on people would be their proficiency. Yep. And, and now I'm realizing like, there is really a lot of value in being a great leader, hiring a team up fast, skilling up your team, building processes, like all this stuff I kind of took for granted.
John Coyle (11:13):
Yeah. Getting individual contributors. People are really like strong crafts people to like buy into you and buy into your vision. Like that is huge because as an IC, you probably had the same experience for that. I've had where in certain companies, uh, when I've been working there, because I've, I've been running my own company for a while. But like, uh, when I've been working at certain companies, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so much bull. I don't know if I can swear on your podcast, but you know, oh yeah.
John Coyle (11:44):
<laugh> yeah. Like this is so much bull, right? Like this is, you know, they're beating you a line and everybody knows it. Right. And yeah, all, all the individual contributed beers, know it, all of that, you know, know. So it's like, <laugh> a lot of times being a leader is like getting these people with technical skills who value technical skills, who value mastery of craft to believe. And, and like you, when, when you're kind of moving into this role where you're losing a little bit of that mastery of craft and you kind of hate it. Right. As someone who's always valued master mastery of craft. Um, but yeah, no, I mean, we're going on. We're going on tangent, but yeah. It's, I, I agree
Rabah Rahil (12:18):
Incredibly well put though that's, that's just eloquently put that's exactly what I was thinking. Okay. So you have made some pretty big moves in your life. What do you think the, like what would some keys to success? Do you think you would kind of lay out for some people, some younger listeners trying to, or age agnostic listeners, but just people trying to make some step changes in their life earlier.
John Coyle (12:37):
Yeah. Earlier on in their journey than me, I guess. Um, so look, I mean, I fell followed a path and there's other paths to follow. Um, but I, I, a couple things that I think have been like pretty key for me is when N like developing mastery of craft, it wa like I can't understate it right. To, to like actually get good at a very important and usable thing, like, uh, running traffic and converting that into sales. Right. Um, and, and on a deep level, not just like, oh, I know how to like, log into Facebook ads manager and like manage my bids and my butt, like, and stuff like that. Cuz I think there's a lot of people who are media buyers who really just learned in the area of Facebook. And I wouldn't say that I'm all that different. It's not like I know a ton of channels, but uh, but I've had to like have these like grindy phases where like I'm working with some brand.
John Coyle (13:30):
I mean, I almost think that like surviving in the drop shipping area of Facebook ads was almost like a really good exp like it as crappy as drop shipping was like, uh, it was almost a good experience because I would be this agent, like I would be an agency hired by a drop shipper, which like, if you think about the irony of that, like a drop shippers, hold on, it's basically just to run traffic. Like they do nothing else, but then they're gonna hire this agency, me and by agency. I mean me and me alone, um, to run traffic for them. Uh, and it was like, you know, they'd be like not good products. There would be, there'd be no redeeming quality. And I would just have to be grinding it out and I'd be doing everything from like pitching different offers to them, different bundles, different doing stuff on their shop, do whatever I could to make it work.
John Coyle (14:12):
Cuz it was like not only means of making any money. Right. And a lot of times I like tie these performance deals in just to like get some, you know, get some action going. Right. And uh, so like, yeah. I mean, I think that like having some like grindy phases where like you're really relying heavily on your capabilities as a craftsperson, whatever it is, a salesperson, a marketer of whatever, um, to like make it work and like you don't really have any other like fallback to that. Uh, that's been like a key to success for me. Um, and then outside that being actually pretty introspective about like what that means in a bigger picture, right? Like what we're talking about right now, like leadership qualities look like, what, what principally does this mean? Or like actually, you know, some big breakthroughs for me came through, came when I was kind of like, yeah, you know what, like I'm kind of living on a hack and a lot of us were, I think, you know, whether we're brands, whether they're me, whether we're media buyers, we're kind of living on a hack for a while.
John Coyle (15:08):
Facebook had underpriced traffic and an extremely advanced algorithm. Right. Um, and, and never, ever in like history probably has interruptive traffic been as easy as it was. Then there was that like, people are always like, oh, there was a time where Google ads were super arbitrage. Like Google isn't interruptive traffic. Right. Like that's search T 10 based traffic net, like interruptive traffic has always been very, very difficult and Facebook made it really easy for a time. Right. And uh, and when I say that I'm living on a hack, it's like I had to learn the deeper principles of like, okay, what, like, how do you actually convert interruptive traffic? You know, it's right, right. Product or right. Offer in front of the right people at the right time. And yeah, Facebook's making this like people in time aspect of it really easy on me. So I'm just focusing on offering creative, which is, which is great.
John Coyle (15:57):
Uh, but when, I mean living on a hack, I mean, there's a lot of my clients or a lot of brands that I'm working with that outside this window of time outside of this like arbitrage window of time on Facebook wouldn't have ever survived. Right. Yeah. Um, so how do you diversify against that and how do you, like, how do you level up so that you can like, do you get away from it? Do you liquidate? So kind of, that was probably key moments for me as well. So mastery of craft and then being introspective enough to like understand like the larger picture as a whole, um, and then get like sound business, press bad as, as corny as it sounds like. I think everybody, a lot of people in the online entrepreneurial will world kind of poo poo on like formal education. Um, yeah.
John Coyle (16:40):
But some of the stuff I learned in like business classes in college are, is very useful. Right. Like it never was when I was just focusing on craft. But like now that I'm actually focusing on like every client I onboard every, every time I onboard a client, I bring them through a SWAT analysis. S S w O T yeah. Did those in freaking business classes 10 years ago. And they were doing 'em for 30 years at that point. Um, but it's actually like probably the biggest thing. Right. So, um, yeah. I don't know if that really answered your question, but those have been like key points for me is like, um, those things and, and the other things I've learned, I think would be like, you know, uh, I don't wanna say entrepreneurship is overrated, but I do wanna say, like you said, it's not for everybody.
John Coyle (17:20):
And I think that, uh, it gets a little too over glorified, either hustle, culture, or passive income culture, either end both get way too, like over it's just too easy to get attention by like glorifying them. Right? Like everybody pull, pull polar things, get attention on social platforms. And so you got Gary V who polars and, and glorifies hustle culture and others who do passive income culture. And, uh, and the truth is like, I think for a lot of people getting a job where they're gonna be able to develop mastery of craft, even if they ultimately wanna be entrepreneurs, isn't a bad idea. And it's a, probably a good path, like get paid to do the thing that you want to do, you know, being an entrepreneur and you'll learn a lot of stuff along the way too, of what you don't wanna do in your business.
Rabah Rahil (18:04):
Oh man. B getting that tattooed the whole, the whole monologue. Yeah. I could more, there's a couple little
John Coyle (18:11):
Rabah Rahil (18:13):
Yeah. Total a big whale coming out of it. <laugh> um, no, I, I, I couldn't agree more. There's actually a couple books that, uh, help me out a lot. There's one called how, how will you measure your life by clay Christensen? Um, and he kind of goes into helping you have, um, it's really interesting. He overlays essentially business principles over your life and it gives you some really interesting data points because he, uh, for people to know he's a, a professor at out of Harvard or he's passed now, but he's a real famous professor out of Harvard, uh, disruption theory, pioneer. Yep. Um, yeah, yeah. Yada, but the, um, long in the short of it, there was, he actually was the, uh, Jeffrey skilling was one of his students. And for people who don't know who Jeffrey skilling is, he was the CEO of Enron, um, which was arguably one of the biggest like quote unquote frauds, um, in market history.
Rabah Rahil (19:02):
And so this drove him to write a book where it was like, how did I have all these really smart, young, talented people, you know, devolve into something where you're defrauding at like the highest levels. Like, and so that was a really impactful book for me. And then to your other point about the business, um, there's something called the emo, uh, which is a really good book on starting a business where yeah. Um, the too long didn't read there is just because you're a good baker doesn't mean you should open a bakery. Right. And I think there's a lot of people that conflate the, to your point, like epic craftsmanship with running a business. Cause it is so, so far from that. And also to your point, the, the more you get into running your business, the farther you get from that IC work that usually oh, yeah. Made you happy because that was the stuff that you're doing. Deep work, you're doing inspirational work. Nobody's bothering you for hours. Like you can, whereas like you run a business, it's just a totally different mindset and other things generate value versus that deep work.
John Coyle (19:57):
I mean, I will like, you know, Ogilvy FA famously fired himself, as CEO said, he could be the head copywriter. Right. So, you know, it's possible, it's possible. Right. But hard to find a CEO, you know, for not your company for not their company. Like it's not that easy. Um, and yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that, uh, becoming an individual contributor, that's very good and very like good at what you do. And this has been the path that I've followed. I was an individual contributor. Fantastic. And I, you know, I created an agency and stuff like that. And so this, that I can, I can speak a lot to this. Yeah. Ultimately the more that business grows, the more that either you have to like, like consciously make an effort to hire like actual business leaders, which is hard, like really hard, or you have to consciously make an effort to become this like trainer, you know, of people and this like overseer, which a lot of times, individual conferred triggers, aren't the best at that.
John Coyle (20:50):
Um, or you have to like, just not do that business anymore, you know? Uh, yeah. But it's not a bad way to make money though. Right. Like, so it's, it's not a bad first hustle, I think. And uh, certain times, if you're an individual contributor, who's a good thing. So like, if you're a baker, you know, or great baker, that doesn't mean you should open a bakery. Like maybe it means that you should launch launch a line of like desserts. Right. Um, maybe it means that where, okay. You know, where as an so Donald Miller is a great example of this with story brand, uh, he's a great author. That's like what he's really good at and the, the highest impact thing he can do for the business of story brand, or I think they're called something else now. Um, business made simple or something like that is write books, right?
John Coyle (21:31):
Like that's the, that's the highest, um, leverage activity, right? So if you're a great traffic person, a great paid media person, uh, starting a paid media agency is not gonna like you're in the long term, you're not gonna be using that skill anymore. Probably not even gonna be. And people are gonna come along who know more about it than you, or have to know more about it than you cuz you're not focused on it anymore. So maybe actually starting like a brand where the, a really high leverage activity is, you know, running paid media would be a better route for you. Um, so yeah, there are ways that you can start a business and, and probably be more involved with your, uh, high leverage skill. Uh, yeah, that's exactly right. And I mean, I I've read the emo as well, and that's kind of maybe part of the books that I feel like maybe contribute to like two passive of business cultures sometimes. But, uh, the principles are sound of like, yeah, just because you're baker doesn't mean you should start a bakery.
Rabah Rahil (22:26):
Yeah. I love that. All right. Folks time for the value add segment, you made it through unscathed. I think you're even more energized than you came on, John. This is the coffee's kicking in or something I'm getting nervous. You have, I'm
John Coyle (22:38):
Started talking about stuff. You get it gone. Yeah. <laugh>
Rabah Rahil (22:41):
Uh, but first we have the value add segment. So, um, let's jump in right to, so I'm a client and you're building a DTC brand. How do you think of building that? Like now in the current environment or ecosystem?
John Coyle (22:54):
Okay. Uh, let me start in a place here for you. So like, uh <laugh>. I mean, you're on Twitter. What, uh, okay. So, so let me jump here first. Almost every DTC brand thinks Facebook, Instagram ads. That's not necessarily right, but we're not even gonna go down that road. Like let's just say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna build this largely with Facebook, Instagram ads. Um, I'm gonna pre I can't just go down this road without giving a little caveat here and saying like, yeah, maybe we should like be responsible and set up some like basic Google ads first, you know, and, and grab whatever low hanging fruit there is to like create some like baseline, uh, good return, even if it's not super scalable. Um, but let's say, Hey, you know, our plan is to try and grow with Facebook, Instagram ads. Um, I don't think it's wrong. I don't think it's the bad way to go. It's it's definitely what I know. If I were to launch a DTC brand, I would launch one that, you know, know that's the way I could go. Cuz that's, that's what I know really well. What is the biggest lever that you have right now on Facebook and Instagram?
Rabah Rahil (23:56):
I would say
John Coyle (23:56):
Creative. Oh yeah. You, you and all the rest of the gurus,
Rabah Rahil (23:59):
John Coyle (24:00):
You and all.
Rabah Rahil (24:01):
John Coyle (24:03):
Rabah Rahil (24:03):
Got Gary got, I got the creative cue.
John Coyle (24:06):
No, no. Okay. So, so yeah, like, uh, I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm not, I actually think it's like oversimplified in the world of DTC culture right now and said like creative is your number one lever. Right. And number one, like I just kind of alluded to there's a lot of ways to build a DTC brand that aren't Facebook and Instagram ads. Um, and number two, I actually think, yeah, like maybe from the ground up creative is your biggest level, but maybe not, you know, like maybe it's, uh, maybe it's kinda like working on like a better offer, right. Or like a better, uh, product, uh, or something like, like being more unique, maybe like a lot of times creative. I'll give you an example of like a company where we like don't really have to think about the creative at all. And it does really well.
John Coyle (24:50):
So we have a brand that sells, um, they actually have like a, a specific manufacturing process that allows them to do this, uh, where they like take large bulk amounts of this thing and like put it into like smaller containers. Um, but they sell like designer fragrances, like gani and, and different ones like that. Um, in, in like smaller sizes than you can get 'em anywhere else. So like the hook essentially is like, Hey, G gani for 99 cents for as little as 99 cents. Um, but we don't have to do much creatively, like offers pretty strong. So like coming up with a, an actual, real moat around your business, like they actually have a whole warehouse and people and process that allows them to do this as opposed to like just going and sourcing some product from China and then trying to come up with really good creative.
John Coyle (25:34):
So like, I would say like if you're in that launch phase, actually building like a real moat around your business that translates really easily into marketing where it's like, look, all I have to do is just say this thing and people are gonna buy it. Like I just, if I put the product in front of people without a very good creative, like then you're onto something. Right. So I, I used to do a thing, like when I would validate product back when I worked with brands that were more in that launch phase, I would do a thing where I would say, yeah, we're gonna validate your product. Um, I'm gonna use like really crappy creatives. Like I'm basically gonna use your product photos and like just the core proposition of what it is. Uh, I have a great example of one, uh, dress shoes made out of football, leather.
John Coyle (26:12):
Like it was the leather that they use in NFL footballs, you know, somebody who made them into dress shoes kind of cool. Right. But just product photo. Cool idea. Yeah. That's cool. Um, product photo. So I'm like, okay, let's validate this product. If that doesn't work in its simplest form. And it's like already hard and already a grind. Like I would go back to the drawing board there instead of trying to be like, let's come up with some really great, great creative, or let's go find an NFL influencer or something like that. Um, you know, like just make it like really simple and easy to buy without great creative. And then creative is a fuel, not a fire. Right. Um,
Rabah Rahil (26:47):
Write that down. Yeah.
John Coyle (26:48):
Write down there it is. So, so that's like one thing and then like, let, let's jump into like a brand that maybe isn't starting out. Uh, if you want, I don't know. Maybe, maybe you're listening and want that. Uh,
Rabah Rahil (27:01):
John Coyle (27:01):
Let give an example. Let, let me, let me come up with like, like an example brand. So let's do like purple mattresses, pretty advanced for ANC brand pretty far along. Do you think creative is a big lever for them now, now? Like, do you think that you Raba like purple comes to you and they say, Hey, we wanna hit this goal. And that goal is not on trajectory. They have to break trajectory to hit that goal. Do you think that there's like a bunch of space beyond diminishing returns on creative? Or do you think they're pretty far past the point of diminishing returns on creative?
Rabah Rahil (27:33):
Yeah. I, I we're at best, I'd say they're break even. Yeah. Approaching diminishing returns. Like it's gonna be hard to squeeze out more value there and it's gonna be, I think to your, the point you're trying to make is like a lot of times, like 90% is pretty doable, but that last 10% of value costs, like more than the whole 90% did to acquire because it's just ringing a dry towel, running people down, like, yeah. Okay. I take your point there.
John Coyle (28:00):
Right. There are a lot of brands if you've been around for a little while at this point, uh, we have like lots of brands in our portfolio like this, where it's like everyone, you know, like Nick likes, Nick does this, right? Like, uh, he over simply Nick Shackleford. Who's like our, our head of our agency. Like he likes to say, Hey, creative's your biggest lever? Well, you know, for certain brands they're pretty far like they don't, they haven't launched a crappy creative in a year and a half. Right. Like, and you know, to quote the Beattles, there's nothing you can do that can't be done. There's nothing you can sing that can't be sung. Right. Like, it's not like we're gonna come up with some new angle that we nobody's ever thought of to sell men's t-shirts or men's wallets or something like that. Right. Like we're not gonna come up with some new idea for selling this wallet. That is cool. Right? Like here I'll show you like this one. It's like one of those ones that like, does that pops my cards out? Like it's
Rabah Rahil (28:49):
Cool. No, that is
John Coyle (28:49):
Cool. Yeah. It's cool. But it's like, we've already showed that, you know, like, it's not like we're gonna come up with some new way to sell that. And if we do, like, if you try to come up with a cord progression, that's never been done before, it would sound weird and not good. Right? Like that's, you know, so creatively, if you are like stretching into these different ideas, a lot of times it's like not good. So, you know, maybe you go to iterations, but you're not gonna get that much gain from iterations. Um, so creative is your biggest lever if there's room there, right. But if you've already been really leveraging creative and really focused on creative, it's not your biggest lever. And I would say that your biggest lever is the ability to find your biggest lever. Uh, which I think is a, a big way triple whale comes in, right?
John Coyle (29:32):
Like here we go, subtle pitch Z. Here's a good, like, for example, maybe let's go back to purple mattresses. Uh, I split things up into three categories and, and it's our three media buying like core media buying team members that we have. We have creative strategists. We just talked about that. And, and a lot of times there is room there, right? A lot of times it's like, oh, they're not trying any advertorials they're not trying. There's so many angles. They're leaving out there. So many elements of their offer. They're not highlighting and stuff like that. So a lot of times there is room there and there that is a lever. I don't wanna downplay it. Um, but creative strategists, media buyers, and growth strategists. So, you know, if you've got purple and you're like, okay, I'm looking at this thing. And it's like, you guys have been running great creative.
John Coyle (30:16):
You guys haven't launched a bad creative in five years. Right? Like there's not a lot of room to like break trajectory and hit this higher goal here on creative. It's not a lever. So then you look at media buying, right? Like, is it like, okay, there's some stuff they're doing in their ad account that, you know, really, if we fix this, whether it's Facebook or whether it's their media mix of like, oh, they need to allocate some of this over here or whatever. Uh, and, and maybe we'd be on the track sometimes there is that. Um, but again, with purple, you probably wouldn't find that with them. They have teams of full time media buyers per channel and stuff. You might not, you might find that you might. Um, so again, there's a lot of brands where there is room on the media buying part.
John Coyle (30:54):
And I think a lot of people in the guru space are underplaying that right now, like there, me buying is a lever, especially when you've overstretched creative, you know, like when you're be, when you're past the breaking point on creative and you've already been launching lots of good creative for a long time, a lot of times media buying and figuring out what the algorithms of the platforms want is a bigger lever. Um, and then where you'd probably actually find it, you for purple would probably be, uh, in some. And this is where I categor categorize under like the growth strategist preview in some element of the brand that they hadn't seen before. So you'd uncover some gem about this company that was like a hidden strength or a hidden opportunity, right? So you might be like, okay, people who come in on this product actually have a three times higher LTV at 90 days, and we're not focusing on that product on the acquisition side. So if we actually just like focused our creative efforts on that product and focused our media buying efforts on that product and like improved our acquisition on that product, I think that would actually break trajectory and bring them to that new plane. Right. So that's not always what it is sometimes there isn't that there, but the levers, like the biggest lever, like that's kind of back to full circle. The biggest lever in any brand is fig is the ability to find out what the biggest lever is. It's not always created.
Rabah Rahil (32:12):
Rabah Rahil (32:14):
Damn. You got me. You brought me around. Yeah, I am. I think I'm in on that now. That is so fascinating. I never thought of it in terms of that essentially diminish returns or just that economic model of absorption, right? Like you've absorbed the majority of the value in that vector, right. Where it's like, even if you go get sandwich or somebody and you spend half a million dollars to run a video or make a video and stuff, it's like, it'd be the same as your $10,000 UGC because you're not changing any of the economics and you're not like you're already running great creative. So like, you know what great creative can do. So there's no way that you're really gonna get a step change there. Yeah. That's a really fascinating take to get
John Coyle (32:54):
Really tactical with people though, because I feel like that whole thing was like, people are like, oh great. So now I don't really know like what to take away from that. Um, you know, if you figure out, if you can figure out what your biggest lever is, oftentimes with creative, it's either that you're leaving some stone unturned, right? Like there's some angle or some market that you can sell your product to, that you're not selling your product to. Um, and you can have some win with either like relevance or specificity or, uh, like reason to act now or some transformation, um, or use cases, right? Like true classic tees has use cases of like, you know, at the club at the gym, things like that. Right. So it's some like that, or it's hopping on a trend, right? So, uh, the creative job, if you have a strong offer, the creatives job is to just do two things.
John Coyle (33:39):
One get attention, two highlight the strongest element of that strong offer. Right. So think back to that brand, I said earlier, all that creatives have to do is get attention and then say Gor money for 99 cents. Right. Like that's the strongest element of their offering. Um, so yeah, like finding, like hopping, finding trends, finding TikTok trends, Instagram trends, things like that. Um, that's usually another like win creatively, um, media buying, I would say it's a lot of times, uh, getting the right organization in attribution on your data. So like using a tool like a triple pixel, there you go, um, using a tool like a triple pixel or something to like figure out like, what is actually like the best window for me to optimize on. Is it one day click? Is it modeled views? Is it, uh, what is it, you know, or if I'm using in ad account, like, what am I looking for or getting the right media mix?
John Coyle (34:32):
A lot of times those are the wins, uh, on the media buying side is like getting more into the data and running the correlations to figure out like what's actually impactful here and what's just perceptionally impactful. Um, and then yeah, on the growth strategist side, a lot of times it's like, this is where it's like hard to formulate, but, um, yeah, it's, it's figuring out like, what is the true Mo that this brand has, you know, like what is the true strength that this brand has? So a lot of times like brand owners will say that their biggest strength is brand, right? Like our brand is strong. I don't mean to say that that's wrong, but it's not like really that much of a Mo you know, unless you're like Nike. So, uh, you know, like, I, I, if, uh, your biggest strength is brand, what you're really saying is like, your biggest strength actually is that, uh, you get a lot of word of mouth sales or that people come back and buy from you all the time. If neither of those two things are true, then your biggest strength probably isn't brand. Um, right. So what is it, is it a manufacturing thing? Is it some kind of supplier relationship? Is it, uh, we have one that like their ability to produce mass creatives quickly was a big strength of theirs. Um, you know, is it LTVs, is it like what I said earlier? Like, can we dig into the analytics of the business and find little UN uncovered gems that like we didn't realize we didn't see, and we could like leverage you.
Rabah Rahil (35:56):
I, I am so on board with all of that. And to, to your point too, I think you caveated very nicely where you were saying that it's not that, um, creative can't be the biggest labor. It's just, um, in some use cases, especially when you do have a proper creative team that is doing some great offer testing and so on and so forth, it might be more useful to go uncover a new nugget and kind of go truffle hunting. Um, because that's, what's gonna get you the step change, not this kind of like 0.5 X month over month growth type of stuff, where it's like, you hit a creative, everything went great. We made a bunch of money, but you're not seeing any to your point. You're not breaking the slope. The trajectory is essentially the same and you're, you're making more money, which is great, but you're growing linearly versus exponentially.
Rabah Rahil (36:41):
And yeah, I think those exponential fines, your right can, uh, are, are either actually in the very rarely are they in the creator's lab, maybe they are again, when you find that right angle that really resonates, or if you're great at trend spotting, and you can kind of ride a wave of, um, you know, the, a Mead or something like that. Um, but having that growth strategist being able to thesis build and like, oh, we should try this. Oh, that didn't work. Oh, we should try this. That didn't work, um, is really, really helpful as well. So I think that's a really interesting way to structure. I love that. That's fantastic. Yeah.
John Coyle (37:14):
Yeah. It's like exactly how you put it, like the step change. So like, uh, the, the toughest most difficult position to be in, and this is like a lot, we definitely have brands who are in this is when you actually are correct about your biggest lever and you actually are aware of it and you are already leaning into it heavily and leveraging it heavily. And you're still not heading your goals. That's like the roughest position to be in. Um, because you're already like, if you're already self aware and, uh, and you're not, you know, like your biggest, your biggest strength and your biggest opportunity, you're already leaning heavily into them and you're not hitting your goals. Uh, that's, that's a tough position to be in, in fact, is that in 2021, a lot of brands are in that position. So, you know, if that's like you, and you're like, ah, none of this really like rings to me, or I'm gonna go truffle hunting and find some new things. Like maybe it isn't there and maybe you're already right about what your biggest strength is and what your biggest opportunity is. And, uh, and you just gotta grind it out.
Rabah Rahil (38:09):
Yeah. Another thing too, uh, going back to what you were talking about at the top was, uh, maybe revisit the economics. Yeah. Could, could you be bumping up against some constraints of your business model yeah. Where like your product purchase cycle is too short, so make the product smaller, don't, don't put as much in the product or charge more, or are you losing your butt on shipping handling? Like, why are you paying $10 to ship this tiny package five day ship? You know? So there's other things you can do to dig into the business, but you're absolutely right. I think, uh, a lot of people that were kind of on the Facebook tee of just this underpriced incredibly, and to be fair, it worked right. Like, oh yeah. Dollar SHA club had a massive exit. They, they basically are a viral video and paid, paid. Hourage mostly on Facebook and they, everybody could fucking got paid there. So I'm, I'm not knocking. I just don't don't think that that's the, the current climate anymore.
John Coyle (38:59):
No, it's not. I mean, I don't, don't try and build that's. Another thing is like, you know, uh, if you're trying to disrupt a market, that's already been disruptive, like shaving or like, uh, wallets or what, like, you know, it's not a disruptive brand anymore. Like, you can't lean your hat on, like we're cutting out the middle man. You know, like message is too old at this point in your, in your space. So, um, yeah. Don't, don't try and build based on like the biggest person in your space who built like back in 2014. So I think that's a, like, everyone's always like, oh yeah. Like just follow those who like yeah. Kind of maybe, but like you're in a different time period. Like you can't do what they did from the zero to one face. And yeah, maybe that Facebook ads still work for the Ridge wallet now. But if you're gonna launch the Ridge wallet, now Facebook ads are, they're gonna be tough, you know,
Rabah Rahil (39:46):
So well put, and, and to be fair, like the Ridge guys, one are super wicked smart, and two, they do a great job in terms of community and all this other parts of the market ecosystem. They're just not smashing paid media. Right. You know what I mean? Everything is lift up.
John Coyle (39:58):
So yeah. I, you once with the, with the founder of MVMT and it was just like, they found, they paid media arbitrage early on. That is just paid. If you're gonna try and launch MVMT now it's not gonna work the same way. You can't get it from zero the same way, zero to three the same way. Okay.
Rabah Rahil (40:13):
Yeah. I love that. All right, John, can you believe it made it to the rapid fire question? Put on your armor. We're gonna take you through. Okay. Are you ready?
John Coyle (40:21):
Rabah Rahil (40:23):
All right. Facebook CPMs, overrated or underrated?
John Coyle (40:26):
Like looking at CPMs or caring about CPMs.
Rabah Rahil (40:29):
Yeah. Overrated, underrated.
John Coyle (40:31):
Um, yeah. Macro level. Underrated.
Rabah Rahil (40:34):
Underrated. I love it. Zion national park. Overrated. Underrated.
John Coyle (40:39):
Rabah Rahil (40:41):
Oh my man. Black Friday, cyber Monday. Overrated. Underrated.
John Coyle (40:46):
Rabah Rahil (40:49):
Oh really? Yeah. Can you dig in there? Tell me why.
John Coyle (40:53):
If you were to ask me starting early on black Friday, Friday, cyber Monday, overrated. Underrated. I'd say way overrated, Uhhuh starting early. Okay. Not that helpful, but there's magic in the week. Yep. There's definitely magic in the weekend. And there still is. That's what we found this year. You know, like every year we doubt it a little bit and every year it's like, Nope, there's magic in the weekend. For sure.
Rabah Rahil (41:13):
To be fair. I, I, I shit on it all, all month, I was just kind of ringing the bell of apocalyptic stuff coming and everything.
John Coyle (41:21):
Yeah. Well look, you know, people sold product that they actually had in their warehouse or whether that product fit on the water. I'm not here. Tell you
Rabah Rahil (41:29):
That's job. That's
John Coyle (41:33):
Rabah Rahil (41:35):
I love that. Okay. CBOs, overrated, underrated,
John Coyle (41:38):
Rabah Rahil (41:41):
Ooh. I like it. Spicy,
John Coyle (41:42):
Whatever the ad account likes do. Do what the ad account likes.
Rabah Rahil (41:46):
Ooh, I love that. No dogma. I love that. What? This guy, he's just an 11. Isn't he? All right. Utah overrated. Underrated.
John Coyle (41:53):
I think most of the world probably thinks Utah is overrated. Uh, it's underrated for a certain kind of person. You know what I mean? Like if you're the kind of person who fits in here, you'd love it here,
Rabah Rahil (42:03):
John Coyle (42:04):
Rabah Rahil (42:04):
Yeah. Southern Utah is, has a special place in my heart. I mean, all of Utah's beautiful
John Coyle (42:09):
Ben to Utah to visit to hike or something would say underrated.
Rabah Rahil (42:12):
Oh, oh, that's fantastic. It's a wonderful, wonderful place. TikTok, overrated, underrated.
John Coyle (42:18):
I'm gonna go overrated here. I'm not sold. I've only seen one brand that I can like convince ly, say like, oh, they're making TikTok work for 'em pretty well. I've seen a lot of people who claim that they're making TikTok work, but nobody's been able to show me yet. Other than that one brand, I
Rabah Rahil (42:33):
Love it trust, but verify nothing gets by it's JC over here. All right. Uh, working from home, overrated, underrated.
John Coyle (42:40):
Um, do you have kids in this rapid fire situation?
Rabah Rahil (42:44):
I do not have kids yet. Okay. For you.
John Coyle (42:47):
I would say working from home, underrated, working from home is great. If you have kids, I don't be so sold on the working from home dream. If you have kids, especially, or just in general, like if you're not the right kind of person, uh, working from home stuff, I get up every, like I have a routine where like I put on real person clothes, like not my pajamas and like go to work in my office at a certain time of day. I love
Rabah Rahil (43:12):
That. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Uh, I would echo your sediments. I was a, I've been, uh, working from home for a while now. Cause I, I used to work at an agency out of, uh, New York and the, I couldn't echo your sediments where I used to be a work from home Maxist and now I'm like I'm so we just got our office and I'm just so stoked just cuz my fiance has her own little vintage business. And so it's great. But like it's just, you know, you lose focus, you get interrupt. There's just all these little things that you don't account for. And then I show up like as a worst partner. Yeah. At the end of the day, because I didn't get what I needed to get done
John Coyle (43:45):
To work the end at the end of the day. When does the day end man? Yeah. Yeah.
Rabah Rahil (43:49):
Gosh, I already had burnout without, I need to give myself like hours. You're
John Coyle (43:54):
Absolutely right. And, and it's, it's like, uh, I think, and maybe this is less of a problem in the post COVID world, but uh, pre COVID, like if you worked at home, man, like nobody thought you like, like everyone's like, oh John doesn't have a job. Like he can help me move the middle of the day. You know? Like didn't at 1:00 PM because he is got nothing going on. He's just at home. Oh.
Rabah Rahil (44:18):
Oh I love that. Yeah. I felt that too. All right. Favorite meal and why?
John Coyle (44:23):
Oh my gosh. I mean, I don't know my favorite meal. Uh, there's a pizza place in Utah. Not in the town I live in, but in another, another town that I'm like very fond of. And why is, I don't know. It's freaking, it's freaking delicious and I love pizza. Like
Rabah Rahil (44:37):
What kind of, what kind of pizza is? It's
John Coyle (44:38):
Like Chicago, it's like deep dish. Like it's like one of those, like you eat like one piece and you're like, I'm full. I gotta take the rest home.
Rabah Rahil (44:45):
I love it. When you come to Austin, there's a great, uh, Chicago place out here called via
John Coyle (44:49):
Look. I love a good barbecue too. Take you. I love a good barbecue too. I was in Austin a few times done, you know, uh, usually our NCAA regionals were there. So
Rabah Rahil (44:58):
Yeah. I love it. Uh, favorite movie?
John Coyle (45:03):
Like favorite fictional movie. Yeah. So, uh,
Rabah Rahil (45:06):
Any movie? Yeah,
John Coyle (45:07):
I guess that's true. Okay. So any of all time, like, uh,
Rabah Rahil (45:12):
John Coyle (45:12):
Hard, dude, this is hard. What
Rabah Rahil (45:14):
I know it's rapid fire.
John Coyle (45:16):
I can't rapid fire though,
Rabah Rahil (45:17):
But these are the tough ones
John Coyle (45:18):
That one's tough, man. I don't know, like maybe forced gum like this, a classic right? Strong Shaw shank. Yeah. That's Shaw shank, which actually came out in the same haw
Rabah Rahil (45:25):
John Coyle (45:25):
Which actually came out in the same year as for Gump and did not win an Oscar because forced Gump won. Fricking sucks to be satisfying. Right.
Rabah Rahil (45:34):
I know what, well, I think like historically it's caught up. I think it's probably accurately ready. It's a masterpiece. It's fantastic. Flick. Yeah. Good pick, good pick, uh, favorite newsletter.
John Coyle (45:44):
Uh, I like marketing brew, like the hustle. I like the, I like my mail. That one.
Rabah Rahil (45:49):
Hey, Hey, look at that man. Yeah. Yeah. Great fix great fix, uh, favorite place to tra favorite place travel to and why?
John Coyle (45:57):
Um, I think ho I think probably Hawaii, like north shore. Uh, yeah,
John Coyle (46:03):
I've only been once and it was just me and my wife. Like after we had kids, we left the kids home and went and that's probably why, uh, that's probably your why right there. Cause it was like just us. Uh, I do like doing like, so this is a thing you learn when you have kids is there's there's trips and there's vacations. If you go to Disneyland with the kids, that's a trip that is not a vacation. Uh, Hawaii north shore with my wife. That's probably one of the only vacations I've taken like real vacations for like a week for, for a minute now. So that's, I mean I'm confirmation bias. I love Austin though. I do actually love traveling in Austin. Like it's a, it's an amazing city.
Rabah Rahil (46:39):
It's a fun city. Yeah. It's really fun. A favorite way to spend your free time.
John Coyle (46:45):
Um, I like to play basketball now. Yeah. Like, I mean like running, but yeah. Yeah. I like to play basketball. I mean, other than like, you know, the chalk answer of like spending time with my family. Uh, you know, but aside from that, like, yeah, I like to, I like to hoop, you know, all five foot, eight of me. I'm not good, but I like to play
Rabah Rahil (47:03):
Powerful. Well, John Stockton love over there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, favorite follow on Twitter.
John Coyle (47:10):
Hmm. Um, there's some good ones. Robert, you
Rabah Rahil (47:15):
Look at that. Look at this. Throwing all the
John Coyle (47:17):
Lever. Yeah. Nick, a good follow too. I guess. You
Rabah Rahil (47:20):
Know, he's a fun, great feed. Good follow, super strong feed. Yeah. Um, okay. Last one. And you'll make it through the whole podcast and the rapid fire, if you could have dinner with three people dead or live fictional and non fictional who everybody's in the same room. So you're, you're hosting the dinner party. Who would they be?
John Coyle (47:35):
I can't not say pre Fontain, like, as I love it as a runner, like, you know, someone who's dead. Right. So I can't not say Steve pre Fontain. I probably will say all people who are dead. Um, yeah. Maybe like, uh, you know what I would think, I think I'd go like, well, this would be like a weird crowd though. So maybe Steve preta, like, so I'm gonna go direction here and like, think of like the whole grouping. So I do Steve preta and then I would pick two other athletes, but I'm gonna go a different direction with this. And I'm gonna say, uh, I'd choose like, like, uh, industrious entrepreneurs from different eras. So maybe like John Rockefeller, Steve jobs, and I don't know someone else, uh, maybe Vanderbilt. He's kind of the same area as Rockefeller though. Um, yeah. I don't know someone, someone in that vein, I wouldn't do Steve preta with those two though. He'd like, he'd just be sitting there eating, you know, what would he say? <laugh>, he'd be like
Rabah Rahil (48:33):
John Coyle (48:34):
<laugh> maybe bill Bowman. I love maybe, maybe throw bill Bowerman or, or night in there with, you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
Rabah Rahil (48:40):
That, oh, that'd be fun. Bowerman night and, uh, preta at dinner. Yeah, that'd
John Coyle (48:45):
Be pretty good. One too. That'd be a good one too. Just like, see what they talk about. You'd just be a fly on the wall in that conversation. Or like maybe bow on the track, maybe like Bowerman shorter and preta or something like that.
Rabah Rahil (48:57):
Oh, sure. There's a lot fun. I, uh, yeah, I love that fire on the track's also great flick. Yeah. John, you're such a gem. You made it through you. Did it. Um, do you have anything to plug or you guys take any clients? You wanna tell us a little bit about
John Coyle (49:11):
Anything? So two things, um, simplest thing is go to YouTube and search for modern commerce. That's my podcast. You will be on there soon. Uh, we can tease that. We're allowed to say that, right. You'll be on there soon. So probably be, be there soon. So go to modern commerce, uh, go to YouTube, search modern commerce to give us that search engine love, uh, and find, find the podcast and subscribe on YouTube. Um, and then the other thing is if you wanna work with, uh, work with us, work with me, um, structured agency, uh, so go,
Rabah Rahil (49:40):
How do they
John Coyle (49:41):
In touch? Yeah. So go to structured.agency. I know it's a little weird. It's kinda a weird one. Uh, but yeah, that's the website structured.agency. Uh, and just, yeah, sign up for a sign up for a consult there and we'll get you taken care of.
Rabah Rahil (49:56):
Beautiful. Awesome, John. You're the man go sub to modern commerce. Go get you some incredible strategy media buying and just overall genuine awesomeness [email protected] Uh, if you wanna get more involved with triple well, you can go to try triple well.com jump on the wait list there. And then, uh, as John alluded to, we have a publication that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday called whale mail. You can just go to our Twitters at try triple well and subscribe right there on our page, John, again, thank you so much for taking the time being so flexible in the scheduling and, uh, man, this is one of that, that creative lever thing I was so dug in <laugh> uh, I feel a little bit caught out with that. That's a really, really, I'm gonna have to go right on. That's such an easy, that's a really fascinating head space. Yep. Yeah. It's, it's a great, and you baed me. You baed me perfectly. I walked right in the trap and got me just snared me and it is amazing. Hey brother, thanks so much again for your time. Enjoy Utah. And then when you come out to Austin, give us a shout for sure. Uh, that's all we have for you ladies and gens. That's number 12 in the books. We'll see. Y'all on the flip.
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