How To Increase Conversion Rate Optimization

January 12, 2023


Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale


Ash Melwani
Co-Founder & CMO of MyObvi
Shaun Brandt
Odditor in Chief Oddit

Episode Description

In this episode of adspend we go over how to increase Conversion Rate Optimization as well as setting up effective funnels #Adspend

Notes & Links

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- Ash's Twitter: https://twitter.com/ashvinmelwani


Shaun Brandt (00:00):

Your site can be a complete and total turd. Your brand can suck. If your site speed is good, you are gonna have a good conversion. I, I can't remember the exact number, but it's like every extra second it takes to load your conversion drops 8% on lower internet connections, like shitty inter internet connections. They're not just not having a good experience. They're not ever seeing your site cuz they're sitting there for four seconds, five seconds and then they're just like, fuck this. And they swipe the window away. Yeah. They don't even, they've never even seen your logo before.

Rabah Rahil (00:34):

All right folks, we're back for another episode of ad spend, but you might see a non-familiar face but better looking and he doesn't have a water bottle. He's gonna drink out of every 30 seconds. Sean Brent co-founder of audit. Fantastic. My Canadian crusher he's uh, one of my favorite people. Uh, he's actually been on the podcast on you or not Euro as our other sister show. Um, and we're gonna go deep into some really cool CRO stuff. Ash has some really cool things that he's been doing on his site for my a and he's gonna cross reference that with the master. Um, Sean, and then Ash as always welcome. Thank you for actually coming onto the show. Cody's in The Bahamas somewhere, hitting golf balls, playing pickle ball, living his life when we're here, grinding it out. You know what I mean? We're we're doing the work and this guy's just over here riding our coattails Ash. Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Ash Melwani (01:21):

I know. Right. And uh, how dare he,

Rabah Rahil (01:24):

How dare he enjoy his life? Doesn't he know he has podcast to do. Um, so yeah, Ash, why don't you just jump right in with some of the kind of CRO stuff that you've been doing and then we'll bounce it off of Sean and then we can kind of go from there.

Ash Melwani (01:37):

Absolutely. Um, so I think the whole premise of like the podcast and what we kind of started with was media buying and what's working on Facebook, take talk this and that. Right. I think at the very core for all of that to work and like, you know, be able to kind of function and, you know, bring in customers, your conversion rate is the most important thing. Right. Um, so I know we kind of touched upon this in the last few podcasts, but the biggest thing for us, you know, has always been trying to figure out how to boost our conversion rate on our landing pages. Right. Um, so you know, what we ended up doing is, you know, we created maybe like four to five different styles of landing pages just to get a theme that kind of works, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, then you start, you know, split testing, different things, whether the banners, positioning of certain elements, um, you know, maybe the sizing of the buy boxes and stuff like that.

Ash Melwani (02:34):

Um, we've figured out a formula that kind of works for us. And you know, what we've seen on our website is that even though I would say a majority of the traffic is new traffic coming to the website, half of the conversions happen on the landing page and the rest happen on the website. So on our end, what we started to see was is that the landing page people are coming, whatever, they're checking it out and we have our nav on there. Right. We've kind of tested with and without, um, with the nav kind of, you know, did better. But what we're seeing is is that not only do you have to worry about your landing page, but it's that experience where people are like, okay, well I want to kind of go and learn about the brand before I kind of commit mm-hmm <affirmative> and they end up going to the homepage and things like that.

Ash Melwani (03:18):

Right. So a lot of like, I mean, it's not, it's not a ton of analysis that you have to do, but you have to look at the, the stages of the funnel. Right. So it's like viewing the product, actually adding to cart, getting to checkout and like completing that checkout. Right. So like looking at those different inner funnel metrics and I'm sure Shawn can kind of talk a little bit more into this later, but at a over like overview, if one of those things is off, you know, fixing it and tightening up just a little bit, kind of literally drastically change your conversion rate. So what we saw was is that half of the traffic was converting on our landing page. The other half is going to the homepage and then buying from there. Right. But that funnel wasn't set up right properly. Right. We kind of built the homepage in mind with like retention, but we weren't, we weren't building it for new customers in mind.

Ash Melwani (04:10):

Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> so what we ended up doing is, you know, split testing, things like the homepage, um, you know, do we go straight product? Do we tell a story? Um, and then another thing that we saw was like, people were buying off of collection pages instead of product pages, right? So it's like, do we optimize collection pages now and product pages? So those are, those are the few things that I think people need to like really understand and kind of take at the, take a look at their data and like first off where's that drop off. And then what are the certain things that you can kind of like tinker with? Right. I think Sean, maybe, you know, that might segue into maybe something you guys wanna, or you wanna maybe speak about and, and what things people should look at and, you know, tinker with.

Shaun Brandt (04:51):

Yeah. I think that's super interesting. Like I, and it's a really good point. A lot of, a lot of brands we work with, um, on the audit side and on the cool and performance marketing side, they're driving traffic to a paid marketing, or sorry, a paid landing page or a paid landing page to a product landing page. And it's really set up to be shopped there. And they're not really considering that flow after if the consumer's like, okay, it's, it's given me just enough to be interested and now I'm gonna go to their website and then that flows not optimized. And it, that, that flow of a user, like you said, half of your sales, like that, that flow is it's a really long one, right? Like that's, they're going through two full websites to get to a, a purchase. So optimizing that is it's really not easy.

Shaun Brandt (05:36):

And I think products like yours that have had a, you know, you've got a footing in the market, you have some tremendous success. And so like to your point, your, your homepage is much more focused on, let's just get products in people's hands and a little bit less about storytelling than the new brand will. And I think where, where the, a lot of brands miss the mark there, um, is, is just finding a little more balance there, right? They're just kind of inundating you with the product product product, and forgetting that, you know, while, while the brand may be popular and, and, and kind of out there, and everyone knows it, all these new users coming through landing page don't so you kind of, you have to inject those little story pieces. Um, one of the things that we've seen working like the best lately, um, in terms of content is, is just like surfacing real users using the product and, and pulling UGC directly into your home, into your homepage, like as high in the, in the funnel as possible.

Shaun Brandt (06:33):

Um, like even above a press bar and like some of the more common shit that you're seeing, you know, that's just, every site has it. Now I think this isn't a, a, you know, a data driven response, but I think my reasoning for why it's performing so well versus let's say a press bar, or, you know, even just a standard review panel is that we were talking about this in the audit club last week, press bars have just become so common that there's no brands that don't have them. And so you kind of sit back and you're like, okay, well, there's not more publications writing more articles. These people are just buying these fucking logos or they're lying about it. Right. So they've

Ash Melwani (07:11):

Start lying to it at a point. Yeah.

Shaun Brandt (07:12):

They're just, they start to lose their value because are they, are they true or are they not? And so I think by pulling up UGC, you're kind of leveling up and saying, okay, well, these are real people talking about our products that have really had an effect on them. And it just has a more powerful effect in some of that. That's not to say that like, you know, trust elements like that, like press and reviews don't be effective. But I think the more that, that the D TOC space is evolving and growing, and there's just somewhat competition in every product, including your space like that. Those more authentic reviews just become so powerful for storytelling and in a brand like yours, where your homepage is really product focused, it allows you to like pull in a really simple brand story without adding 10 cross sections to your homepage that just clutter it. You know what I mean?

Ash Melwani (08:00):

Yeah. No, I think one of the biggest challenges that we have is because we have such a diverse product line. Right. So it's like, where do you put emphasis? Do you put it just on your top sellers? Do you, you know, tell the story of like all, well, we have something for your entire lifestyle. Um, I think, I think we've tried to kind of get away from showcasing everything. So it's not confusing or it's like a lot of people in our community, you know, when they join without buying. And they're kind of asking questions for the first time, a lot of the questions are where do I start? Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so,

Ash Melwani (08:36):

You know, maybe going, I think one of the biggest things that we included, um, on the homepage now is that a bests seller's, um, mm-hmm <affirmative> item in the nav. Right. I think a lot of people start funneling down into there, then they see like, okay, well, alright, now I know these are the top sellers. Let me just stick with that or let try that first. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and then also, maybe including a quiz somewhere on the homepage, which I think we're, we're lo we just launched the AB test on the homepage completely like, uh, you know, a is our control with what we have right now. And B is a little bit more of that storytelling. Um, but then also including a quiz, uh, including store locator, cuz you know, starting picking up in retail. Um, so like being able to maybe direct people in that, the direction of like, okay, maybe go for the flagship versus here's everything is probably the route that we're gonna start going in. Um, but I think it, it it's tough. I mean, I don't know if, if you've seen brands with, you know, a larger like, you know, line, how do they, how do they showcase everything or maybe the, the goal is to not do that. You know, what have, what have you seen there?

Shaun Brandt (09:44):

Yeah. I, I find that the, you, what the strategy you're taking right now is probably the right move, which is focus more on best sellers and what every, you know, what you're existing in past customers have really went for position that for your users, I think you have a really solid brand and like overall you're aesthetic your tone of voice, kind of every element of your, your, I guess brand ecosystem is really tight. And so getting a new user to buy into like a product, that's the best seller that they're gonna have more, I guess, peers around them using it and feedback and everything like that. I think you're, you're gonna get them into the brand ecosystem and then you can start selling them more products. So for me, it's definitely a, a matter of like, what is that? What is that product hierarchy in, in the Abe brand of saying, okay, well here's, here's the, if you come to the site and, and they're gonna scroll in every section that they scroll to, you have drop off, right.

Shaun Brandt (10:38):

That first section, what's the product where it's like, we have to make sure they see this. And then this one is a little less important than this. One's a little less important. I love that. And I think you, you can't do it one by one, right? You're your catalog's too diverse, but you could do it category by category. Right. Um, I, I, I think that's super important because it, you know, your best seller speak for themselves, what, whatever is sold the best up until now. I mean, there's a reason for it. Um, you know, one of those reasons could be just spending more paid marketing dollars on it. Um, but, um, you know, de depending on what the reasons are for, for it to be a best seller, I think there's definitely merit in, in having it higher in your hierarchy.

Rabah Rahil (11:19):

Yeah. I love that kind of building off of that. Sean, how do people need to be thinking, cuz one of the things that I know is a challenge is when you have, um, some fundamental shifts to the site, it can put off your returning customers, right? Because the patterns are different now. Like you put D buttons in different place, like damn it, I I'm, I'm used to a certain flow and stuff like that. When you, when you have kind of some experiential changes to some, you know, let's just call what is perhaps subpar flows that you've seen on client's websites? How do you kind of mediate that? Where it's like, Hey, you know, um, we don't wanna piss off the people that are already giving us money, but to ASHA's point, I wanna scale to $40,000 a day instead of $20,000 a day in paid media. And if I'm using a subpar layout and experience, but my returning customers are used to it, how do you kind of, uh, mitigate the kind of loss to the new customer or the returning customers, but also be able to, you know, um, promote this new experience to, um, the prospective client. Does that make sense?

Shaun Brandt (12:20):

No, it does. I think that the one thing to always keep in mind is that brand like your brand ambassadors, your people like your users that are already subscribers are people that are buying. I think once you have them through that, the sales funnel and, and the UX becomes so far down the totem pole of importance, just simply because they're really what you're selling them when they come to the site for someone that's never bought before is they're trying to get 'em to buy end of the vision, right. Buy into the brand. And yeah, there's the little like nuances of the UX that are gonna convert those little percentage points different, but you know, you're really trying to get them to believe in the brand. And I, I, in my experience, the people that are the brand believer, they're not gonna drop off because of a shift in a button or the experience is maybe longer.

Shaun Brandt (13:01):

I think once they're a consumer that that conversion rate for that user is pretty easy to, to just remain consistent regardless of what you do now, obviously you can't just like totally fucking change the site and it's just unusable, but you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, I think your experience should always be catering as much as possible to, to those new users. And I think that in, especially in your case, Ash, like where I'm guessing a lot of your traffic is being driven by paid media, um, you have to be careful with changing the site too much. And then let's say that the campaigns you're running aren't changing. Right? So we see a lot of, a lot of audit customers, right. Will say, Hey, here's all the different things we think that could increase your conversion. And they'll just like, boom change. 'em all in a day. And, and it, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you didn't change anything else about the traffic or the ad campaigns. Like you can't just change it all. You gotta, you should be doing this incrementally to make sure that, well, one, like if we knew that all 50 recommendations were gonna increase conversion, we wouldn't be running audit, we'd have 25 D TOC brands and we'd be billionaires. And two,

Rabah Rahil (14:05):


Shaun Brandt (14:05):

Like if, if you implement them all at once, it's impossible to know what worked and what didn't. Right. No works, because let's just say that we gave you 10 recommendations. Eight of them might have increased your conversion by a little bit. One of them might have done nothing and one of them might have decreased it by, you know, a half point. So it's like, how do you identify that if you make all those changes at once? So I think that there's kind of a, if you follow that rule set of just saying, let's just keep making incremental changes and, and move the needle bit by bit, instead of trying to just say, Hey, let's, let's go for it and go for that, like swing for the fences. I think that can end in disaster almost every time. And yeah, by doing those incremental changes, it, it, I guess ensures that when you're running the same paid traffic, you're not screwing that traffic up. You can kind of watch from both ends and make sure that the conversion's, you know, doing what it needs to.

Ash Melwani (14:59):

So the one thing that I've always, and, and you, I don't know if there's a right way or wrong way of doing this. Right. So my mentality, when I was testing completely new landing pages, right. It wasn't just making tweaks to one. It was like, I need to make the big changes to see if I can make bigger swings. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, for example, I think our old, old landing page was converting at like a 2%. Right. Um, and like trying to make changes to like, get that from two to three was like almost impossible. Right? Yeah. So it's like, okay, what if the entire structure just needs to be revamped? So that's when we, you know, tested a whole D different themes. And one of the landing pages that we got was around five to 6%. So it was like, all right, well, we doubled a little bit more than doubled. Yeah. So my question to you is, are there times where like, you should go for those big changes to see if you can get those bigger swings or do you take, what's like kind of working and just like incrementally, you know, kind of nitpicking at this stuff. Because like, for me, I feel like you go either way, but like, what if you just don't know if like one massive change could just change the whole trajectory of it? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Shaun Brandt (16:11):

I think that

Rabah Rahil (16:12):

If, can I say it a different way? Yeah. Cause I love what you're saying, but you were using a lot of words, like transformative versus iterative.

Shaun Brandt (16:19):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And I think

Shaun Brandt (16:23):

<laugh>, I, I think when you're, when you're driving traffic to multiple landing pages and, and you're seeing these two totally different layouts and, and flows of information operating at totally different conversion rates, I think to me, that's enough information to say, okay, we can effectively make pretty drastic changes cuz we've seen what works and what doesn't. I think that's a little different. Um, and honestly I like we had, uh, we had Nick, uh, Sharma on our, uh, audit club on Thursday or Wednesday. And one of the things that he said that he does when he, when enter, whenever he's dealing with new brands, which I, I don't know why I never thought of this this way, because I used to run an agency and we should have been doing this. But he just said like, instead of hiring design agencies in the beginning, he would launch the brands under just various show gun pages that he built himself.

Shaun Brandt (17:13):

And he wouldn't actually put any money into the website at all. Not a single dime, completely launch the brands, using show, gun templates, figure out which one, you know, out of let's say three or four is converting the highest. And then he hands that to a design agency and says, you know, apply all the beautiful shit you wanna apply to it, put it on brand. But this flow of information, these details are what are converting. So don't fuck with it. Yes. And to me, that saves brands so much money because all every day, all we deal with is these brands. You know, all of them, a lot of our customers have some great success, but they're just, they're, they're figuring out their conversion rate a year, 2, 3, 5 years into their business. They could have done it front. I mean, obviously it's a little bit longer path and you gotta, you kind of move some levers around. But to me, that, that process of doing those landing pages like upfront and just saying, look, let's just see what, what people think and, and make those drastic changes right off the beginning. Don't make any assumptions. I mean, to me, that's, it's such a huge shift in, in how to launch a brand online.

Ash Melwani (18:18):

No, I'm like, I'm the same page there cuz I very similar to what we did was um, I, like, I took my time and I built stuff out on show them. Right. We have in-house designer, we have a developer, everything, but like I can't tell them to go and make this cuz it's gonna take 30 days to knock out four pages. Right. Where I can sit down one day, just get zoned in and knock 'em out, then see what works. Right. So when I made those four and the one was a clear winner, then I go and take that to, um, my other founder, UNC, it who's the, the main, you know, designer and everything now make this look better. Right? Yeah. Now he's gonna take that, give it to the developer now hard code it instead of using Shogun. So that one, it looks better. Two site speed is probably fixed cuz like show gun slows shit. Yeah. Now you're kind of like, all right, well here's the winner. Let's let's Polish it up now. So I think, I think that's, it makes sense fully.

Shaun Brandt (19:10):

Yeah. And I've

Rabah Rahil (19:10):

Never go ahead, Sean. Sorry.

Shaun Brandt (19:13):

No, I was just gonna say, and, and I, it, I hate to admit it, but like as a, as a, you know, previous design firm owner and then with audit with a lot of what we're known for is the aesthetics of it. Like those aesthetics they're, they're literally just the lipstick. Like there's very few parts of that that are affecting your short term conversion in terms of like long term value and like keeping customers bought into the brand. Sure. They're extremely important. And very few brands last that don't have those consistencies built across their aesthetic. But in terms of just discovering that, that solid conversion rate and building up your, you know, your brand and that foundational moment, the aesthetics aren't as important, it, it really is about just discovering what works for your products. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (19:59):

To build on top of that, that is really shout out Nick Sharma big fan of his, um, it's a really interesting hierarchy to kind of work through or if you will, that can order of operations because I think what you're doing there is one not only are you, um, figuring out kind of, I love how you put it, Sean, the information flow, but you're also essentially really testing product market fit because you are not being able to goose it up, right? Like this is just a foundational product and you're buying it for the product, not the marketing. And so there's also, I think some really interesting tests there, but the also to your point, Sean, which I found really fascinating is I used to worship at the altar of aesthetics as well. And then you get into kind of proper marketing. You're like, dude, I just want what converts.

Rabah Rahil (20:42):

I don't care if it's ugly or not just gimme like, I, I don't care what, like what converts is pretty to me, that's what drives aesthetic. Yeah. But, um, it's really interesting because there's twofold. One, I do believe the aesthetic does need to increase because of the brand perception. But the other thing there is that might help retention, but sometimes it cock blocks acquisition because I've seen aesthetic get in the way of conversion. Have you seen that sometimes where people go overboard, like this is the most beautiful site ever, but I have no clue where to click. I don't know how to buy the product. I don't know what's going like, this is a magazine, this is an art piece. This ISNT a conversion piece. Have you ran into that as well?

Shaun Brandt (21:21):

Oh yeah. It, it, I mean a, a lot of fashion brands do this right. Where they're so committed to aesthetics that, that they're just killing their conversion. Um, we actually just hired a, a, one of the, one of the lead designers, um, at AIA, which is like a big fashion brand. And um, it, it, you know, that's one of the, one of her mandates was just like to pull that back and just figure out, like, how do we meet in the middle of, of the aesthetics and, and maintain that brand aesthetic while not killing conversion. And there's cer there's certain brands that get away with it. Um, like we dealt, we dealt with one, uh, at audit and I won't say the name, but you know, they, their homepage was just a video. That was the whole page. There was no footer, no logo. No, it was just a video of like 10 super celebrities in a, in a looping video of wearing their jeans.

Shaun Brandt (22:14):

Right. And you just click on that video and then you're shopping these jeans and their conversion was fine, like right. Totally abnormal experience. But they got away with the fact that people are just like, oh, Mariah carries wearing it. So I have to buy it. I'll I'll do fucking anything. I don't care where the button is. I don't care. Yep. They just wanna buy it. So, you know, there's anomalies like that, that can get away with that crap. But for the most part, yeah. It's, it's the aesthetics, aren't really driving conversion. They're driving long term brand loyalty in a lot of cases. Yes. But even then it, it, it's only if you execute all the details, right. The aesthetics won't do it all. It's it's storytelling and you know, all these other factors that play into that bucket, um, you really have to nail all of them.

Rabah Rahil (22:56):

Yeah. And just to kind of round out this point, the one vertical to be fair, I have seen at work in a, basically to your point of what you're just describing. Sean is high fashion where it's like, I don't give a fuck. Like if I have to run through a, a prickly Bush, I'm gonna buy these jeans or shoes or whatever, because it, it, and in a weird way, it almost like enhances the experience because it makes it more scarce. Like I had to work harder for this. It's like a weird Ike effect. It's like, again, I would not suggest this for 99% of people, but there there's some weird brands that like, make you work for it. Well, they'll run, like I've seen luxury. Like again, I'm talking like super high end luxury. Um, and they'll run ads without CTAs and stuff. You're like, yeah, the hell is going on here.

Rabah Rahil (23:41):

And then I have to Google it and then I have to find it and then I have to buy it. I'm like, there's no way, way this is by design, but it is in some weird, I mean, maybe not, maybe, maybe that's just a perversion of it, but, um, yeah, it it's really interesting in that sense, um, where, uh, it had this really odd effect of like introduces even more scarcity, which is, again, what's driving the value in especially high fashion because it's not a utilitarian buy like this, a Birken bag is no better than a $5,000 coach bag. It, it is what it is. It's just an air me bag. You know what I mean now? And so, um, it's just total scarcity, but um, okay. Pivoting off of that, one of the things that blew off blew my mind when you guys did the audit.

Rabah Rahil (24:19):

When I ran my old agency was, um, the way you saw desktop to mobile, are you guys looking at that Ash in terms of how your splits look and how those experiences look? Cause that was one of the craziest things that audit came back to me with was like, Hey one, your mobile, this is how much people are on mobile or shopping. This is desktop. And then look at your, like our desktop experience. Wasn't horrid. It was okay. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> maybe above. Okay. But mobile was absolutely atrocious. And that was the majority of where we're getting all our traffic. And so are you guys thinking about that in terms of how people are experiencing it on, on both kind of, um, mediums?

Ash Melwani (24:55):

Yeah, so I mean, the obvious is that the most of the traffic is, is mobile, right? Mobile. Um, when we design, uh, landing pages or even like, um, external agencies that have designed for us will always ask for mobile first, before they design desktop. Um, that, I mean, it just makes sense that way, cuz it's like, all right, fine desktop is whatever. Like it's literally like 10% of the traffic and, and majority of the time it's probably returning customers. It's barely new. So that's why I've noticed that's, that's the other thing. So mobile it's like, alright, all of our ads are running mobile feed TikTok, this it's rarely desktop. So it's like, just like we start mobile first to, to basically answer that. And then you kind of expand out to, I think tablet and then, and then desktop as well.

Shaun Brandt (25:45):

Yeah. And I think that that's exactly how you should be approaching it. I think the, the main thing that we've been seeing and to be totally Frank, like we don't dive into a ton of our customer's data, but the, the one thing that we do see very consistently is whatever your let's just say that, like you said, Ash, 90% of your traffic is coming on mobile. There's a higher percent of conversions on desktop. So what I mean by that is if 90% of your traffic is mobile. So 10% of traffic is desktop. 20% of the actual sales that you make are on desktop. So you get a lot of people coming in through mobile and they either get hung up or they save it for later and then they go in and they buy on desktop. Cuz they're just more, I don't know. It's like a mental thing of like pulling out your credit card on desktops using a phone.

Shaun Brandt (26:30):

Yeah. So it, it is one of those things where it's like, we always tell our customers, like, don't just look at traffic because look at your actual conversions, like what did they buy on? Because in a lot of cases, in at least almost every case of our customers, their conversion of actual like purchases is, is a little higher than their traffic desktop to mobile. Um, so it, it is, it does become more important, but I mean, you're bang on like most, most brands are, are driving, paid traffic paid, traffic's being surfaced on a mobile device. So that's how they're coming through.

Ash Melwani (27:02):

Yeah, no, sometimes like when we go through, I guess getting audits from like random agencies, right. And then they come back to us about like our desktop they're focusing on desktop only. It's like, like kind of like a red flag, cuz it's like, well that's not where the traffic's coming from. Right. So, but fully, fully agreed. Right. You have to have all aspects kind of sorted out, cuz I mean, I'm like that, how you said, see something on my phone and then when I'm working right. I'm at the office, I'm literally on the computer. That's where I kind of finish that research and then decide if I wanna buy. Yeah. Um, so

Shaun Brandt (27:39):


Rabah Rahil (27:39):

Would be hard, hard at work while you're, you're getting paid to make purchases get at it. Ron, are you listening here Ron? <laugh>

Ash Melwani (27:46):

Don't tell Ron <laugh> but

Shaun Brandt (27:48):

You're, you're, you're totally right with like, I, I think as a, as a previous like design agency owner, like I, our team always, no matter what the client was, no matter what their focus was, we always pitched desktop first and it was completely selfish. Right. Because it's easier to show fidelity. It's easier to it's sexier. Right. It's like showing up on nail big canvas versus like a big canvas. Like it's just sexier. And to your point, like it's completely ineffective. And, and part of the reason why I'm not running a design interest anymore is because it was just <laugh> it was all smoke and mirrors. Like we were never implementing for customers on a basis where we're actually paying attention to things like conversion. It was just like, what's sexy. What's gonna win an award for our agency. And you know, that was it. That was really all that it came down to. So I totally understand that.

Rabah Rahil (28:40):

Let's dive into some PDP. Sean, when do you think of like kind of like an information hierarchy, um, thumbnails, like what are you thinking about there? Like what's like free shipping. Like how are you trying to reduce the cognitive load? Like what are you thinking? Or, or just gimme your head space when you, you go to ashes site and say, Hey, cool, this is amazing PDP, but how could I improve it? Or how could I not improve it? Like what would you be thinking about there for our clients?

Shaun Brandt (29:07):

Yeah. One of the things that we started doing recently, because there's just so many, there's so many different variations of, of flows and content hierarchies on PDPs is we actually started working with, um, a company called split testing.com and basically Dylan and his team are like constantly running split tests for all their clients. Yeah. And he kind of basically just downloads to our team, Hey, here's the things we found this week that are like, they win every test, no matter what. And a lot of the times what's interesting is they're new things. It's not like shit that we're used to doing. Um, and so we've been actually testing a lot of new stuff with PDPs. Um, one of them that we've been recommending a lot to test, not to just do is to like completely remove quantity selectors and put them only in your cart.

Shaun Brandt (29:56):

So you don't actually give the option of adding multiple units and then interesting as an alternate test, um, replacing that completely with actual buy boxes for multiples. So by one unit, two units say 5%, three units and their actual like variant options. That's another test we've been doing. And then the one that Dylan came back with last week that was kind of mind blowing to me and I now, ever since he saw it, I feel like it's following me in around the internet cuz I keep seeing it is moving variant selectors below the add to cart. So there's no

Ash Melwani (30:32):


Shaun Brandt (30:32):

It's just add to cart and then like subscribe and save single purchase or quantity is below the add to cart, which as a designer, I'm like, I it's just like it's total sin shatter, but yeah. I'm like, what am I gonna, I can't argue with it. It's working. And now ever since he said it, I can't fucking get away from it. I see it everywhere. And so now I'm like, I'm not, we're not recommending it yet cuz I still wanna see more data on it. But it super interesting to me, like some of the things that are working and aren't working. So I, I think the biggest advice I can give on PDPs is just like, man, test the shit out of all those little details because quantity selector, you know, placement of add to car versus variance, all these little things like split testing those. I mean you can really dial it in of it. It's obviously different things work for different products and different price points. But man, there's, there's so many different options.

Ash Melwani (31:23):

So how do you guys prioritize like the PDP? Like do you guys wanna have the CTA above the fold? Does it matter if it's slightly below? Do you wanna have information like at the top? So people kind of go through the flow of like learning, like what, like what do you think is the best way to kind of go about that

Shaun Brandt (31:44):

Man, because of our VA, because of my background in particular, um, being most of it with brand building and, and like kind of end to end product launching, I, I really start from the really foundational level of like, what is the product? So like as an example, um, you know, if, if my customer is selling a plain white cotton tea, right? There's nothing special about it. There's nothing unique about it. There's no like, you know it there's no, it's not like blessed with holy water. There's not like all this shit they need to explain. It's just a, a medium white tea put, put that, add to card button in the fucking head, like first thing on the page, like there's not much, I need to tell them in order to get them to buy it aside from pick a size. Right. And the, and that price point is probably, you know, 15 bucks.

Shaun Brandt (32:30):

It, the, the more information that's required to understand your product, the lower, your add to cart's just gonna have to be. And it, it also depends on where your traffic's coming from. Right? If they're landing on the PDP from an ad, you're gonna have to give them a little more info. If they're landing on the PDP from your homepage, which told them an entire story, you probably have to give 'em a little less info and that's where it becomes tricky, right? Because there's not many brands that are pushing two different PDPs depending where you came from. Right. It's very rare. It's very rare. Um, and, and it, it really should be done a lot more in my opinion, because the information that a user has when they come in is very different depending on where they came from. Um, so like to use your product as an example, I mean, there's, let's just say that we're shopping collagen.

Shaun Brandt (33:14):

There's gonna be users that come in from an ad, educating them, both collagen as an example, they probably don't need to be told what the hell the collagen's gonna do for them. But if someone comes in cold, searching for collagen for the first time on Google and they find my ABI and they are, they find ABI and then they land on a PDP first. I kind of want to educate them a little bit on collagen. So that's not an easy task. Like that's not an easy solve, but I'm the point I'm trying to make is like, it's so dependent on the product, the price point, how hard it is to understand the products like I, I was auditing a site this morning. Product's amazing. Um, it, it's basically like an easy bake oven for adults. Um, you, you have a food subscription, this, that not

Ash Melwani (33:57):

An air fryer. <laugh>

Shaun Brandt (34:01):

What I thought when I first looked, but you literally take, you take these food thi like the, the packs that they send you, you scan it on the oven and then you pop it in and it does everything. It just, it just scans the QR and sets all the settings and everything. And they have like, wow, hun hundreds of meals. And then it also syncs with thousands of SKUs from grocery stores. So you pull in your whatever from whatev like whatever, brand, like 500 different brands, you scan it and it just sets it all up and does it for you. So anyways, the, the problem with this product and why the sales funnel is so long in the PDP so long is because you're selling a smart oven and then you're also selling a food subscription and you gotta communicate what types of menu items there are.

Shaun Brandt (34:43):

How often do I get them delivered? Who loves it? Why do they love it? Is it healthy? Is it unhealthy? Like there there's so many facets to communicating that. And so a, there, there isn't even a PDP, it's like a Lander and then an add to car, right? It it's. So there's just so many different scenarios. And so my best advice, long story short is to really St. Start at that foundational level of like, what do we make? And, and how are we selling it? Is it, you know, some products you can't elevator pitch, it's just not possible. It, it takes more explanation and, and you shouldn't treat your PDP that way. Cuz in most cases, your PDP is the elevator pitch, right? It's yeah. Name, little social proof. How much does it cost? Two bullet points. Put it in my cart. Right. And that, that works for a ton of products, but it work doesn't work for a ton of products either.

Ash Melwani (35:31):

So like for, for those products where you do have to have that like education, right. Is it, I know that what, what we've tried to do in the past is like, have like a sticky at de cart. Right. So as you're learning and you kind of, okay, well I'm sold at this point. All right. Boom. At de cart or even like on our landing page, we'll kind of sprinkle the CTAs throughout. So it's not like you're hard selling, but it's like, all right, if you're okay at this, like you're ready to buy here at least have the option to be like all well buy now and it'll take you to the buy box or whatever it is that you're on. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what are, is that, do you think that's too much or is that like, is it too salesy? Like, I don't know. I I've seen, I've seen some people that are like, okay, well we only have one CTA. Right. And like I've seen pages where like it's sprinkled throughout or like you don't even see a CTA until you read through the whole thing.

Shaun Brandt (36:19):

Yeah. I, I think it, the approach you're taking where you're, you have, let's say varying content blocks on a Lander and multiple exit points I think is right. And in 99% of cases, it's probably right. I think that what that does and, and we do this with a lot of landing pages when we're auditing them is let's just say that on your homepage, the customer's talking about, or sorry, the brand's talking about, you know, how it works or what makes it great. The composition of the product and what they end up doing is they use the CTA to say learn more. Right. And it takes them to another page. It's not the PDP. And while that in certain product categories can make sense. All you're doing is giving yourself an excuse to not explain it properly on the homepage. Right. There is very few things about very few products that you can explain in a headline and a sentence below it, or a few bullet points.

Shaun Brandt (37:12):

And as soon as you say, okay, I'm gonna put a headline, a couple bullets and then a learn more to a big fucking blog post about collagen. All it's telling me is that you weren't able to fig like elevator pitch me on it. And it's just instantly for me, that's lowering your conversion instantly because I'm not taking them to the PDP for one to shop the product. And now I'm also just making their funnel longer, which is, you know, in some cases works, cuz you're educating. But in a lot of cases, it doesn't so long story short. I think having those CTAs throughout that Lander is important. And just being mindful that majority of them need to be pushing to actual product purchasing, not more education, like a learn more page of some certain element, um, in the PDP with sticky, add to cards. I love them.

Shaun Brandt (37:57):

Um, we've seen a lot of them work, I think, where they fall short and where they don't work is when you make them compete with a more standard add to cart. So what I mean by that is I land on the page. And the first thing I see is product image and a sticky add to cart to me, that's where we see the conversion drop. So our advice is be just simply because we see higher conversion on the, on the more native one. So our advice is always let them scroll, discover the add to cart where you have it on the page. As soon as that add to cart is off frame, then the sticky pops in. That's the biggest piece of advice I can give on that is it should not be visible until they're past the, like the more natural one.

Speaker 4 (38:39):

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Rabah Rahil (38:41):

And for everybody listening, sorry, I hate acronyms, uh, PDPs product detail page. It's basically just a product page. That's how Shopify refers to the product page. So sorry if you guys were lost there. Um, yeah, that's super fascinating. I never thought about that. Okay. Give us some tips, Sean, on collection pages, what, what should people be doing on their collection pages? So those can be really, I actually had some really crazy conversion with collection pages, but it could also be, um, again, more of the people will just go and a bit of a flow where people returning people just come, they click this and they know what they want. And so that why that's why they're converting. But our, how, I guess two questions. What are some tips for collection pages and two, how important are collection pages to really, um, uh, focus on,

Shaun Brandt (39:27):

I think for most brands, um, like ABI being one of them, I think depending on your catalog size, it it's, it's super important. I think one of the major things that a lot of brands miss is the second that you're in a specific category, right? So let's just say on ABI, I click on collagen, it not offering the ability to filter and change what I'm looking at. Right? A lot of brands, they, they have their collection page that shows all products and you can kind of filter and select which ones. But once you land on an actual specific category or a specific collection, they make it actually a little bit harder to filter. So I think that's one fault that a lot of brands have is they're not allowing enough like versatility within the, I guess, collections ecosystem. Um, the second thing that we see, um, that works really well is just always, you know, never showing one product at a time.

Shaun Brandt (40:22):

So when you're on mobile and you're scrolling through products, just always make sure that it's two by two. The try, the reason, this reason, the, the reason that this works and there's multiple reasons that I love it is one you're letting pro users see in a lot of cases, the entire product card at once. A lot of brands struggle to format their content in a way that they fit the image, the headline, the reviews, the price, the, you know, all their info on a single screen view. This kind of forces you to have to do that because you're putting them two by two. So not only does it force you to have to show an entire, I guess, product information set in one view, but it also forces you to like hone in on what are the most important things, right? Which is another fault of a lot of brands. They put too much information on the cl product collection page. Your, your collection page is really meant to just be kind of that exploration to make sure users can like pick where they want to go. You don't want people shopping from here in a lot of cases, ad card is killing conversion from here. We've seen it work, but most cases except for anomalies add tocar should only be happening on landing pages and, and product pages. Um, so by shrinking those down to, yeah, like I said, some brands it works, um, like, because

Ash Melwani (41:39):

We, we actually got some data backs, at least for ours. Right. And I think the reason why this is happening is because like, again, a lot of our traffic is going to landing pages, right. And then they either buy there or they go to the homepage and their searching around whatever the conversion rate from our collection page was higher than the conversion rate from the product page. Yep. Which is why we just did an overhaul on the collection page. Cuz like right now it's like out of the box, like picture price reviews at the cart, it looks like shit, to be honest. Um, we redesigned the whole thing where now we added some of the stuff that you were talking about, like filtering, um, shopping by the categories, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I was just, I, and I don't know. I, I, to me, I feel like it's, it's probably the brands that are pushing to a landing page that will educate and then be able to buy from that page. But then also people drop off and then they go, you know, search for the collection whatever's and they're ready to buy from there. So I'm just, I'm just something that we saw on our end, um, that having that add to cart there, like actually was better than the, the, the

Shaun Brandt (42:46):

PDP. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it, it, it's not the same across all brands. Definitely like, especially with the one like yours, where the products are, most of your products, the, the product category is something people are familiar with. Right. So that also has an effect on it. They're they're coming in and they're saying, okay, well, like I don't really need to dive deep on the, every particle of this product. I've either bought

Ash Melwani (43:07):

It. I know what collagen I'm just gonna the flavor.

Shaun Brandt (43:10):

Yeah. Yeah. So it, it, it becomes a little easier to add to cart wherever the hell it surfaced.

Ash Melwani (43:15):


Shaun Brandt (43:15):

Makes sense. So it, yeah, it, I could definitely see that being the case. Um, and again, like to your point, it depends on if they came right from an ad, right. From a landing page. Um, there's so many different, uh, angles to that. I think that, excuse me, one of the other things that we see, and, and I like to see on, on, on collections pages is just getting people to the products ASAP. Like you do a good job on, on your site. Like so many brands, they try and treat it too much like a landing page. And there are certain scenarios where it's like, maybe you're launching a new product line or a new product that needs explanation. And that collection page needs to have a little more storytelling or education. And, and, and it, I think in those scenarios, it makes sense. But I think it it's really important that when users click to shop all or shop collagen or shop a category that they're seeing products when they land there, whether it's right at the very top or, you know, halfway is not the end of the world, but they need to see products when they land there, not a big headline.

Shaun Brandt (44:13):

Um, so I think that's one of the big things. And then also just providing additional info. Like I think there's, there's certain, um, collections pages that just have too much, like there's too many products and it becomes hard to actually navigate, like, what am I, where am I, what am I looking for? Um, so I, I think there's a, a few brands out there that do a really great job of like segregating these, um, into separate categories as you flow, instead of just throwing them all in there <laugh> and letting the user kind of find their way. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (44:42):

Yeah. That's brilliant stuff that that's exactly. When I was running my agency, what we found was that, uh, the collections pages were just get out of people's way, give them, give them kind of the biggest high note type of info, but make it clean and like, get it, like, for example, like Ash does a really great job where, um, it's an instant add to heart where you just hover and boom, I don't even need to go to the PDP. Like I know I want, yeah, let's go. Like, it's, it's fantastic. I love it all folks. So I made an egregious error. Um, we actually didn't talk about the most important thing that it comes to, or one of the most value value driving, um, vectors, I guess, if you will, for, um, a site's performance and conversion, um, site speed. So why don't we jump into that?

Ash Melwani (45:23):

So I have questions for, for you. Yeah. Um, so this whole time we've been on, you know, like Shopify, right. Um, good and bad pros and cons, right. Um, 1.0, I guess is the way we were gonna call it. How is, you know, how important is it to upgrade to that two point? Oh, um, and if not two point, oh, how is headless, you know, how, how, how are those themes kind of, you know, in the conversation right now regarding, uh, speed.

Shaun Brandt (45:52):

I think that what we've seen is going to two point, oh, if you, if you go through the proper channels and don't just hack it together, I think it can be really positive. Same with headless, um, site speed. Unfortunately, if you're just at the mercy of Shopify and their applications and plugins and shit like that, your site speed's gonna suck. If you have a talented development team helping you implement everything, you're gonna be a lot better off. I think that what we see for the most part across any store on any platform, that's, that's just dragging their site speed down, is they test out applications or plugins constantly. They don't keep a lot of them, but the old code is just sitting there and it's just bogging the site down. And they, most people don't know how to get rid of it. I don't even know how to personally get rid of it. Right. We have our team do it, but like it it's bogging down the site and it's slowing it down. And so like deleting those, making sure they're not just like, oh, turned on off kind of thing. And actually deleting them from the theme are the most important thing, regardless of which version you're on, cutting out that bullshit and then image, weight, image, weight, video, weight, that shit, just especially for like a brand like yours, Ash, that has a lot of products. Like it can really crush things.

Ash Melwani (47:06):

Yeah. No, even our nav was like, so image focused that that itself was taking eight seconds to load. And so our dev had to go in and do, yeah, it was, it was stupid. Um, literally, but saved it by just adding lazy load. Right. So it's like tight loads in like one second now, but then when you actually click it, then that's when it loads. So like these small things can like, just make such a difference. Right? I mean, uh, Sean, like in your opinion site speed. How does that in general affect conversion rate

Shaun Brandt (47:38):

It to me, it's the reason we don't sell it super hard is cuz it's really hard to do to be totally Frank with you. But it's the most important, like by far and away, your site can be a complete and total turd. Your brand can suck. If your site speed is good, you are gonna have a good conversion. And it's funny, so many brands they're they just don't give a shit about it because you can't see it. Yeah. It's it it's just like, like I was saying with the agencies, right. They want it to look sexy and, and then brands buy in and it's like this you're just they're so into aesthetics. And when someone goes and spends 10 grand to increase their site speed, the only thing that changes is the site speed. There's no different visual there's it looks identical. Right. And founders have a tough time with that.

Shaun Brandt (48:19):

Or everyone has a tough time. You, you wanna see something change when you spend that much money. But, and, and a lot of them are just really, I guess, blind to the fact that it's affecting things and they don't want to, they don't want to admit it because they click on the site and they're like, oh man, it's not that slow. What they don't realize is that, is that like most people that are using your site are on a shitty 3g connection are like who knows, right? Like every connection's different and I can't remember the exact number, but it's like every extra second it takes to load your conversion drops 8%. So like fucking moving from an eight to a four, for instance, in your case, Ash, like that has a crazy effect on conversion, just because in Mo like in those cases where it's really slow on lower internet connections, like shitty interconnect, internet connections, they're not just not having a good experience. They're not ever seeing your site cuz they're sitting there for four seconds, five seconds and then they're just like, fuck this. And they swipe the, the window away. Yeah. Yeah. They don't even, they've never even seen your logo before. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (49:21):

Yeah. That's so funny you say that too. Cuz I, I always had that issue one it's very, uh, astute to say that it's just hard. Um, so it's easier to just not bring it up cuz it is very hard to, to, and sometimes you have to get into a lot of some arch architectural stuff and like it just gets really, really gnarly. Yeah. Um, but the other thing is, uh, it's the exact same thing. There was a funny, uh, back in the day, the president of Egypt was getting in like Cairo has some of the most notoriously bad traffic and uh, people would tell 'em about they, like, what are you talking about? I never hit traffic <laugh> cuz everybody clears the streets from, and it reminds me of the founder on just super screaming, Google fiber, like what are you talking about? Yeah. The site gig

Ash Melwani (50:01):

Snappy for me.

Rabah Rahil (50:03):

Yeah. The site's super snappy for me. So it's like, what did I pay you all this money for? That's not mean faster, but um, that's awesome. Well, I'm glad we got to talk about site speed site. Speed's super important. Um, figure it out if you can. Um, definitely some easy wins though, are like you said, Sean, right? Like, or, and to your point, Ash too lazy loading, like how you load the site. Um, and then just making the assets lighter weight where you don't need to have have, you know, 10 megabyte kind of pictures loading up. Like you can definitely compress those down and that can be some kind of easier wins versus having to really dig deep and re architecture the site. But um, to Sean's point as well, it's super, super important. So make sure you do that. Sean, you made it through a whole episode of ad spend my man. My favorite Canadian. You, I love it. Tell the people how to find what's this audit club too. I didn't know you had this thing. What's going on. You gotta tell me these things. We'll we'll promote you on the, on the, well, let's go.

Shaun Brandt (50:55):

Sorry. Yeah, it, we launched it about, uh, six weeks ago. It's basically a, it's a private slack community. Um, we've got a ton of different founders in there. We, we only unlocked a hundred spots to start. We just kind of love it. Admittedly had never run one before and we wanted to work out the kinks. So we, uh, we sold a hundred spots and we just started opening up more. Um, it's been really great. We do. I mean, there's a ton of different channels from paid media to like kind of everything. We've got experts in every field, um, kind of in there answering questions and, and whatnot. And then every week we also do, uh, I do live teardown. So you come into a live zoom and submit your domain and then, and then I no Holtz part rip down your site. Um, and then once a month we, we have some guests.

Shaun Brandt (51:42):

So like Nick sh was on last week. Um, lots of different people coming in and uh, so yeah, it's uh, you can just go to our site, click on audit club, audit.co and then click on audit club and sign up. It's uh, I think we're still running our introductory rate. I think it's 50 bucks a month. Um, and you also get a ton of cool discounts. Like we have a partnership with Juno. We have a partnership with triple whale. Um, yeah. So if you're just looking to save a bunch of money on all your apps, you can also just sign up and never come to the club.

Rabah Rahil (52:11):


Shaun Brandt (52:12):


Rabah Rahil (52:13):

That's incredible, man. Congrats. That's what's up? It was funny cuz Ash

Shaun Brandt (52:17):


Rabah Rahil (52:17):

That. Yeah. Ash is very prophetic where he called kind of the death of the Facebook group. It's almost like the death of auto tune, um, called that a few weeks ago and it's been, uh, I've just been cuz we have, we have something similar-ish not, not as fancy as yours. We have NARAL nation, um, that we do that slack group and people love it. It's over 700 people and I think there's just, um, I don't know. Ash's spot on where I just I've been getting way more value from slack groups these days than Facebook groups. Yeah, it feels just uh, just a little cludgy, a little gross. A lot of brands still have great Facebook groups. Shout out to Avi. You're always the talk of the town at

Speaker 5 (52:51):

Yeah, I was gonna say it depends on, it depends on the vertical.

Rabah Rahil (52:55):

It depends on the vertical for sure. Yeah. You're always the talk of the town when it comes to community. But Sean dude, thanks so much for having us, uh, drop the people. What's your handle? How can people follow you on the Twitters?

Shaun Brandt (53:05):

Uh, uh, my handle is Brandify B R a N D T I F Y. And then audit is just audit co or audit. I actually don't know

Rabah Rahil (53:14):

How beautiful

Shaun Brandt (53:14):

Audit is.

Rabah Rahil (53:16):

Doesn't even know the own handle. That's how big league this guy is. This is, this is how big league this

Shaun Brandt (53:20):

Guy is. It's audit. It's audit is the audit one. Sorry. I was both of them are wrong.

Rabah Rahil (53:25):

Still. One of my favorite brand names. Ash. Tell where the people to follow you. What is it? Vitamin shop? Where are they supposed to be buying it from? Send, send 'em a picture. Yeah, let the people know. Go

Ash Melwani (53:35):

To your local vitamin shop. Take a picture. Tweet it at me please, please, please. Um, but other than that, follow me on Twitter. Ashman me money. Um, really close to 10 K soon. Hopefully. So drop a fall. Let's get 'em.

Rabah Rahil (53:48):

Let's get 'em there. People

Ash Melwani (53:49):

We'll do a little something special.

Rabah Rahil (53:51):

This fruity cereal with the super, I don't even take collagen, but this fruity cereal collagen looks amazing. Oh, I might have to buy some that's looks top

Ash Melwani (54:00):

Seller man. Stop. Is it? I'll send you something top seller, fruity cereal. We literally sold out. I don't even wanna get into like the media buying stuff of it, but like we just sold out cuz like TikTok went crazy. Um, and we lit like we have nothing left, like everything's at vitamin shop. So like we had bring,

Rabah Rahil (54:17):

Tell me TikTok is a viable media buying channel Z. I didn't say I didn't say Hey, we're being good. We're being, we're doing good people here. I love you Taylor. Yeah.

Ash Melwani (54:29):

<laugh> much respect, much respect, but yeah man. I'm um, vitamin shop, please check it out.

Rabah Rahil (54:36):

Cool. Let's get 'em a 10 K take some vitamin shop stuff. Go get an audit so you can start printing more money. Join audit club is there. So there's spots open now Sean people can still join.

Shaun Brandt (54:44):

It is yeah. We're open. Opened it up until we hit two 50, which we're getting close to. So get in there,

Rabah Rahil (54:50):

Get in there, get in there now. It's amazing. Sean's one of my favorite humans. Thanks Sean. For the, the quick turnaround. Thank you for taking Cody's place. Yeah, of course. Cody is irreplaceable, but you know, he's, he's taking the wife to the beach. So you can't, you can't hate him on that. And he's been posting some really cool pictures and um, I guess he's playing some decent golf, so we love you Cody we'll have him back next week, but that's it for us folks. And I got you out. Ash hard, stop at five. Boom done. Did it look at that? That's a, that's the pro move over here. People I can run a clock. Um, Sean again, thank you so much from the great white north. Hey, you're coming to Austin for the whale's right? September of course. Don't yeah, can't wait. Oh my God. It's gonna be a rager. Can't it's gonna be a rager. What? Oh, you know what we should do. Maybe you'll present an award, like a conversion, some kind of a conversion award. You've be into that.

Shaun Brandt (55:33):

Whatever you want, man. I'm there.

Rabah Rahil (55:34):

Yeah. Oh, that's rage. It's gonna be so fun. I can't wait. Folks, if you wanna get more involved with triple oil, it's tri triple well.com. We also have a fabulous newsletter called whale, Mel that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday. And you can sign up right on our Twitter profile at triple well that's it folks. Thanks for sharing a Friday with us and uh, we'll see everyone on the flip bye.

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