In this episode of ad spend, we get into the thick of it, going over everything from audits to surveys to career advice. #Adspend
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Ash Melwani (00:00):
People have bought, but they're not sold yet. Okay, so how do I like Good line. That was actually fire shit. Bars, sun bars, bars.
Rabah Rahil (00:15):
All right folks. Welcome back to another episode of your favorite DDC podcast ad spend. Um, we have our favorite Cuban, the Miami Monster, Joel Pedro Drone joining us today, um, of cross net fame. And now partner homestead. I'm not mistaken, correct at that one of the, one of the top agencies in the country, if not world. Um, we're gonna be talking about pre click post, click what you should be looking at, how to acquire customers, all the things acquisition. We're gonna have my man partner in crime, just one of my all time favorite humans. Ash Milani joining us today, as always, to complete the double duo of the ad spend hosts. Um, yeah, let's just get into it. Joel. Joel, excuse me, man, I gotta get that better. Uh, for people that don't know, kind of give them a little bit of your background, kind of where you were, where you are now, uh, what your specialties are, just kind of coloring the lines for some people, and then we'll get into some tactical stuff
Joel Padron (01:10):
For sure. Um, so I've been in the econ d TOC industry, a lot of social media influencing for almost 10 years now. So I got started influencer marketing with managing over a hundred accounts that I owned on, on, uh, Twitter, Instagram, so a lot of memes,
Rabah Rahil (01:24):
Joel Padron (01:26):
Yes, over a hundred accounts that I owned, managed. Um, so very early days of influencer marketing. Worked with some of the world's biggest celebrities brands. Um, started, le started leveraging my own audiences to build e-commerce stores, Um, helped others build their e-commerce stores. So, um, that's kind of how I got into it. And then, um, never really ran my own brand that was, you know, seven plus figures a year. So joined cross Net about two, two and a half years ago. So that was like a real chance where I'm like, All right, I feel like I know what I'm doing. Let me get behind the wheel and like help lead growth, um, you know, at a larger brand, oversee, um, geographic growth, a lot of different channels, retail, um, Amazon, completely new to me. So that was a lot of fun, getting extremely deep learning as we go, building that, building that brand. And then, um, about five months ago I switched over to the agency side at Homestead. Um, so that's been a lot of fun, applying my learnings, helping out, you know, dozens of brands instead of just one. So it's been a fun experience just learning, sharing what I can with everybody.
Rabah Rahil (02:31):
Yeah. Amazing. And we actually got to, uh, meet in Miami for the Miami geek out, so he's actually even better looking in person folks. Um, but that was just a lot of fun. And shout out Shaq, Miami, geek out, the national ones coming up. Ash, you gonna come? You wanna come to Tennessee? I too tight. I have to figure out November's chaos for
Ash Melwani (02:50):
Rabah Rahil (02:51):
It's, it's tough. November's chaos. Q4 is tough, you guys. Q4 is, Q4 is tough. Yeah. Yeah. Q4, Q4 is tough. Um, what was your favorite meme account? What was your favorite influencer account that you were running at the time?
Joel Padron (03:01):
It's like, if you knew this question, you did it. I'm just saying you did it. But <laugh>, My, my biggest and my favorite was I had one of the largest sneaker accounts back then. So it was like sneaker bible. I had like 600,000 followers on there.
Rabah Rahil (03:14):
I wish. Amazing name.
Joel Padron (03:16):
I wish I still had it, because that would've, it was pretty much the biggest account at the time on Twitter. Um, so yeah, that was a lot of fun. It was, it was really big.
Rabah Rahil (03:25):
Amazing. Near and dear to my heart. I'm looking at like a used car right next to sneakers here.
Joel Padron (03:30):
Your wall of sneakers,
Rabah Rahil (03:32):
<laugh>. Yeah, you're gonna love it when you come into town, Ash. It's, it's proper. It's really cool. I found a guy that does custom, custom acrylic boxes. Shout out, look, see designs. Um, really cool dude. But anyways, we won't talk about my shoes. We will talk about, we were jamming a little bit kind of offline before we jumped on the podcast. You have this really cool paradigm that I hadn't heard before. In terms of pre click, post click, you wanna kind of take some people through that?
Joel Padron (03:57):
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the big things that I like to look at first when, like, I'm evaluating a brand auditing it or just a friend looking for advice, and it's, you need to know what problem to solve first. Um, so the way I just split it up is like, are you having trouble acquiring traffic efficiently? Cost efficiently? So that would be kind of a pre click or at click, um, or are you having more of a conversion issue? Uh, so that would be like, post click is, are you getting traffic efficiently, but you're just not converting it well? Um, that's kind of how I filter out the two separate sides of what the focus is. And it's very clear, which, like whenever I audit a brand, it's very clear which direction I need to focus on it. Um, so yeah, each one has its own set of problems.
Rabah Rahil (04:41):
That's a beautiful bifurcation. That's really interesting. And then I'm guessing there's obviously just different tools, tactic strategies for whether you're on side A or side B, right? So if people are coming to the party, but then they're not drinking, talking to people, or nobody wants to come to your fucking party kind of thing.
Joel Padron (04:57):
Pretty much, yeah. If you can't get people to your party, you got terrible ads, you need to fix your, fix your approach. And then, you know, if people are coming into your door, but your party sucks, they're walking right back out means you need to improve your party, aka your brand.
Rabah Rahil (05:11):
I love that. What are some of the things, tactic strategies? Like how do you evaluate that? Is there like metrics you look at, or like what, what do you use to build that picture?
Joel Padron (05:22):
Yeah, really it's just, it's very simple of just looking at kind of industry benchmarks. You know, I know you guys have a nice feature that just rolled out that even gets specific to that industry niche. Um, but for the most part, it's like if your CPC is, you know, an $8 and you're, you know, a lower AOV brand, you thought the bat that's pretty bad. Like, I need to focus there. Um, there are a lot of brands that are, you know, they're switching from a different agency and it's like, Hey, like your ads are actually hitting like $2 cpc. You have 150 plus aob, not bad. We could work with that when your conversion rate is sub 1%. All right? That's where the issue is. And now we need to focus on problems that fix that. Um, so really that's how we split it up. And like the moment for me, it's very formulaic where you just put 'em through that path. Um, you, you know what you need to fix. And the moment that you see those fixed, you start seeing the boost overall. Um, so that's what I've leaned into, works every single time. Um, so I'm happy to jam further into that so people could learn and apply.
Rabah Rahil (06:24):
That's amazing. Asher nodding your head over there. What do you, what do you got for me?
Ash Melwani (06:28):
I I, I mean that's like the biggest thing I think people are forgetting is that there's, there's another person on the other side of that, right? Yeah. It's like you can kind of show them a really cool ad. Like you, you remember the example you always give roba, like the, the, the ad that you were running with the just a happy dog on it, right? Yeah. And it's like just the quality of the audience that does come in from that. Like, your stats may look amazing, CTR might be great, CPC is great, but it's like post purchase congruent, right? And I think post iOS updates, the biggest thing that we've focused on is just congruency from like add to landing page to post checkout experience, right? So, I mean, this is, I don't even know where we wanna start. You wanna start on like the, the ads end and what really goes into making a good ad?
Joel Padron (07:20):
Rabah Rahil (07:20):
Before you jump in there, Joelle, what you, what the fuck you doing? You're reading the vocabulary app now. Congruency. Wait, what are you doing here? You're really stepping the game up. Your audio's on point. You're throwing $10 words at me, Hundred words at me. Come with the For Joel. Yeah. Watching.
Ash Melwani (07:39):
Rabah Rahil (07:40):
Ok. It's hard for interrupt you, Joel. Go ahead now. I just had to get that in. I
Joel Padron (07:44):
Love it. I love that he said that point, because honestly like that is how I evaluate, uh, a lot of brands is that congruency. So even without access to an ad account or anything, I could already call out what your, what your issue is without you even telling me or having a data to back it up. Um, so I actually do go into that process first. So you could, I like to go into it without the data first. Explore it as a cu as a consumer. I like that. And get, and get like your feel like, was it clear going through it? So I'm very big on what Ash said is that congruency between the ad destination page, et cetera. Um, so if you're a lot like, Oh man, it drives me crazy. Everybody's so big on like hooks, angles, all these things promising the world.
And then like, cool, you got me to click the ad, I go onto the landing page or product page, whatever the destination is, and you don't talk about any of the benefits that you just made me click from. Um, so exactly like you're saying, it needs to be very, it needs to continue telling the story. It's all a funnel. But again, people think of it all the time, we think like marketers of like, Oh, this is a top of funnel, middle funnel, bottle funnel. Like, you need to stop thinking like a marketer and think like a consumer. So it's just like, I
Rabah Rahil (08:51):
Joel Padron (08:51):
That this very seamless continuation of my experience.
Ash Melwani (08:54):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, go ahead. There just, there's two things that you said that like, I feel like a lot of people are arguing about right now. So like, like one of the biggest arguments right now is like, do I run retargeting? Right? I think my biggest argument against it is that why are you still running like sequential retargeting, right? So like you're trying to address the objections after the fact when you should be just addressing them to start with, right? So the way that I've kind of now approached things, and people will still tell me this, like, Oh, you're landing pages are so long, there's so much information. It's like, well, there, it's handling all the objections. There's a CTA button every fold or every, sorry, every screen, um, scroll, they can buy when they want to, right? So like, your ad is one that's, that has to stop somebody in.
They're scrolling, right? They're, they're on social to be entertained, whether it's on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, they're there to pass time, right? Eye catching something that like, people need to have the hooks, the angles, the first three seconds, the thumbnail needs to stop you in your tracks, right? That's like step one. Step two is, all right, what are you selling? Like what, how, why should I be interested? Right? And I think we're really nailing that with, at Avi cuz it's like you're really calling out the specific pain points without being too like, like calling out the individual. Like, Hey, you're, you're going through hair loss, but it's like, hey, like, you know, do you wanna solve this problem that's out there? Cool, Right? Sell the click. Then it's like, the problem is that people aren't continuing that story from like the ad on their landing page, which is like, okay, I'm here because I got sucked in because I'm dealing with this problem right now.
How do I as a, as a brand or marketer address that and tell you why you're going, you may be going through that problem, right? Then it's like, all right, well here's the solution to that problem. Here's why I think we're better than every other product out there. Here's our 50,000 member community that swears by the product, um, free shipping, any FAQs, money back guarantee, all the objections are being handled, and then hey, free shaker with purchase. No brainer. Right? I think people don't think of that entire funnel. I think they're, like you said, they're, they're thinking about it in stages. And I think you, if you, if you basically compile everything into one, then you're literally giving somebody no option other than to buy right there and there because all their answers are, uh, all the questions are answered. Yeah.
And I think even looking at like ad comments too, like if you still get questions on your ads, just add into the landing page. Like I think who said it? Uh, Nick Sharma shout out to Sharma. Um, but he was saying one of the coolest things that I think, um, we're starting to do is literally like get all your comments, stick it in Excel file and like kind of categorize them and then however many are like in each question, right? Rank them and then like address 'em in the landing page so that one, it takes the, the guesswork out of it and all the questions are answered and then there should be no objections by the end of the day. And then conversion rates are typically gonna be lifted there. Oh, sorry, that was a, that was a long winded, uh, response. But yeah,
Rabah Rahil (12:18):
I, I'm a hundred percent, When I was running my agency, that was the easiest hack. So like we had a creative agency that we would run all of our creatives through, right? And that's all I would do every week. I would just go through, especially too, if you're spending that any decent scale, like you're, and the ads are at least, you know, somewhat engaging, you're gonna get like these incredible comments. And like the beautiful thing about comments is like, it's like drunk people. They will flame you, they will tell you how it is. There is no sugar coating or nothing. Right? Yeah. And it's like really helpful though because then you can, to your point ash, like you can really understand what the objections are of like, oh, is this cheap or is this fake or is this gonna uh, hurt my fertility or whatever. And the beauty of it is, uh, we just took those. And then, and the, to your point of, uh, and again shout out Sharma, Did you see him flaming Figma by the way? Amazing. Yeah. Real kid. I love the kid.
Ash Melwani (13:10):
Save the money, save us some money. Save
Rabah Rahil (13:12):
Some money, man, the people he is. Um, but it was just such an easy way to aggregate. It was just like customer service on steroids because there was no pretense. Like these people just wanted to be heard and that's it. And like it was just so great. And honestly, I'm sure you have some of this as too Ash and Joelle, I'm sure you've seen this as well, where like the best thing that can happen is somebody like flames the product and then a bunch of other people like actually have the objections solved for them. Like, Oh, that actually didn't happen to me. This is why it's so good for me, blah blah. And like those ads would just slay. They would absolutely crush. And I think it's too, basically the thesis you just laid out, Ash is like that ad became a landing page because those top comments would kind of rise to the top and there's all these incredible replies and everybody like, Oh yeah, cuz these aren't plants, these aren't like fake people, these aren't bots.
It's like a real person behind it. Um, so anyways, I just kind of piling on with you Ash, but I think that's a really clever, like I think the comment section is one of the most underrated. The other thing is if you're not patrolling your comment section, you can actually do some things with brand sections where you can, um, do it automated. So if you can have certain words be kind of, uh, the comment won't post and stuff like that, cuz I'm not a big CPM maxi, but for sure, like Facebook wants to keep their feed as engaged as possible. And so they don't wanna have, you know, if somebody's crack pipes and homeless people in the street, like Facebook's gonna charge you way more to get into the party than if you're a well dressed happy person that's gonna make everybody else happy. And so having those comments cleaned up and making sure that there isn't this negative sentiment on your ad that you are actually spending money to get more reach on, it just always blew my mind that people didn't kind of police their, their comments not only for the, the keeping the negatives out, but also to get that user feedback I think is such a pro tip that's so underrated.
Joel Padron (15:04):
It's true. I I always recommend it. I see it from a lot of our brands just either not monitoring it or not even like contributing to it. So you need to hide negative stuff and like contribute to the conversation. So that's big.
Ash Melwani (15:17):
Amazing. Yeah. Even like, okay, there's one, one more point to that is that I think recently what we've tried to do is I haven't, I I've gone, I've gone easier on our like, customer exclusions a little bit, um, just on like the top of the funnel. Like I'm only excluding maybe like 180 days, right? I want certain people to see it and like kind of leave their responses too, right? Um, and like I've, I've noticed that it's, it is getting, it's like getting a little bit like more engagement in terms of um, kind of getting the ads like off to like a good start. It's just people are like, Hey, like yeah, I tried this, it's good. Maybe handle some objections too. But I think, um, that's like one of the tactical sides is like, do you go completely heavy on exclusions? Do you allow a little bit in so that customers can comment on your ads? Um, to your point, it, it ends up becoming like a landing page in itself. Like people are already pre-sold before they even click
Rabah Rahil (16:19):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. What's your take on exclusions show?
Joel Padron (16:26):
I'm kind of with Ash where it's like a lot of people like to overly exclude, you know, there naturally is gonna be some, um, something that we do suit we do see pretty often is a lot of brands are, um, a lot of their first time impression ratios are very low. So like they're just 50% of their odd, like budget is practically going to retargeting. Um, so that's a big miss. Um, <laugh> very clear, but that's, that's almost every single time we look at an account. Um, so I agree you're not gonna, you shouldn't exclude fully, um, but be around, you know, 75% or so, like 25% of 'em could be past purchasers or you know, warmer audience, but you wanna try to keep around 75% relatively cold. Um, and I love that idea of how it kind of turns into a landing page, um, because I'm a big believer where, again, trying not to think like a marketer where we're doing a lot of landing page testing and obviously the first question is what type of landing page works best?
Like what format tical? Is it five? Is it tical? Is it a sale salesy one? At the end of the day, it's whichever one conveys the message that you're trying to get best. So it isn't that one is necessarily the best. Some might have a more natural format, but I agree with you Ash, where it's like, if you could answer all of the, you know, any of the objectives, objections, um, wherever it is, it could be on a product page, it could be on a homepage if you even get it all in there. So it doesn't really matter as long as you're answering the questions in a way that's easy to find. Um, and I think that's one of the biggest things, and kind of going back to it, that would be like one of the, the brands that struggle post clicker with conversion is, and we see it a lot, it's they just need to fine tune their messaging on, on the website. Like, your hook is really hitting in this angle, Why isn't your copy matching that? Why aren't you handling the objectives? Or like, why is your, why is your offer not really pushing further? Um, so I'm, I'm completely aligned with all of this and it matches everything that, you know, I'm kind of seeing with a lot of brands that we look at.
Ash Melwani (18:21):
Yeah, to your point, like edit, like different style landing pages, right? Whether it's a sales landing page, listical, uh, advertorial, right? I, I think what we've been saying is that the ad in itself, right, does it make sense that it goes to an adversarial? Does it make sense that it goes to a sales landing page, right? Like are you trying to maybe even like, like the ads that are like here's three reasons why you might need collagen, right? I wanna send that to maybe a listal, right? Cause it's like here's the three, maybe there's two more reasons, whatever it is. Um, I think people forget about that. I think people are like, I gotta test like landing pages, I gotta test all this stuff and then they use the same ads, but you're not really giving those landing pages like a fair shot. Um, yeah.
Yeah. So I think you have to tailor the messaging entirely. So for what I've been trying to at least instill in like our, like the graphic or our um, design team's mind, it's like, okay, what type of person are you going to attract with this graphic, right? Yeah. Does it make sense that it's going to, do you think they'll resonate or will the landing page resonate to this person, right? Like what, like for example, say goodbye to hair losses, our main headline that we've been kind of rocking with in your head, what does that persona look like to you? And what type of person does that? Like how do you think that person is gonna relate to that landing page, right? Are they gonna be interested in seeing reasons why five reasons why this collagen is the best? Or are they trying to understand why they're going through hair loss first to then you have, have you sell them on a solution which is a collagen supplement, right? So you just have to, I, I think that's one way. Like you can just imagine what the, the persona of who is actually gonna click on the a it, it sounds so basic, but I don't think people do that enough. Like they're just pumping out assets and whatever it is and like hoping it converts. But you have to remember again, there's somebody else on the other side of the screen and how do you tailor that experience the right way?
Joel Padron (20:20):
Yeah. I wanna jump into that one cuz I, I have kind of like a unique take that kind of is in line with that where exactly like you said, a lot of people, you know, you see on the timeline test everything. Like, everybody's like, Oh, this worked and everybody goes and rushes to test it. Yeah. I recommend with a lot of these brands that struggle with conversion, well they, they tend to have a problem of not knowing who their audience is or what makes them tick. So one of the ways that I work to like get that solved fast is a post purchase survey. Um, so either no commerce or I know triple will just release one. Um, where you can find out kind of what are the primary reasons people are purchasing your product or how do they plan to use it. So if we're utilizing hair loss, like if you guys see, all right, that's a top three per top three use case that people are utilizing it for hair loss instead of going thinking creative first and creative last go. Okay, the pro people like, people like our product
Ash Melwani (21:14):
Like that. It's a line.
Joel Padron (21:15):
Yeah. People pe So you identify people purchase this to assist with hair loss or prevent hair loss. So now like you said, what are the objections or what are the questions that they have? Put that in the landing page, whatever the destination is, and now make it creative that matches that. Um, if brands start doing that, you're gonna see an absolute like complete difference in your ads versus just, oh, this, this hook didn't work. What it's like, like Ash said, like maybe cuz the destination had nothing to do with it. Um, so working it backwards I think is the smartest approach and I don't really see much people talking about that.
Ash Melwani (21:51):
That's a good, uh, that's a good point. I think one of the best things I've done in the last like few months has set up that post purchase survey. Um, right now it's like, it's five questions. Um, don't expect. Yeah, I don't expect everyone to answer it. No, it's not, it's not high. It's not high. Okay. Um, like the, by the fifth, by the fifth question, it's not high, but as long as I get like people don't have to fill it out, it's just in the thank you, uh, order confirmation screen, they leave, they leave, that's fine. But we have the volume to at least get some data. And the biggest thing is the first place is the first question is, um, where did you first hear about us? Right? And it only goes to new customers. Okay, this helps with attribution. Facebook, TikTok, where did you hear us?
Right? Second question is, what information would be valuable to you right now? Right? That has helped us tailor the post purchase experience, right? So what's actually very interesting is that we found out is that there's still the same questions that a prospective consumer might have is how do I use this? Will this work for me? Um, I wanna see real testimonials, reviews this and that. Like it's still like people have bought, but they're not sold yet. Okay, so how do I like that's a good line. That was actually fire shit. <laugh> bars, sun bars, bars. Um, so how do we take that experience and put it in the post purchase flow, right? So leading up until they get their items, um, putting in the recipes, how do you use when you use, um, here are top three stories of um, how people have used the product and they've lost X amount of weight, they've regained, they rere their hair, et cetera, et cetera.
So that you feel confident and ready to start when the package comes. Right? There's a third question which is, um, was there anything stopping you from purchasing today? Right? And I think the biggest thing was like, does this work price, this and that? Right? So for us it's like, okay, I don't think there's enough social proof on the landing page. And if the majority of the people are like, Oh, I'm still like skeptical, maybe I need to add more right to the landing page. So not only is this shaping post-purchase, but it's still also helping me shape pre-purchase, right? So I think setting up these like questions that will help you understand how to make this a lot better. Even even if it's, there's like a 20% completion rate, it's enough data to go back and kind of formulate a better funnel and you'll probably see a huge lift just from that. So I think there was two other questions, but I'll, I'll have to go back and take a look. Maybe I'll, I'll drop it on Twitter.
Rabah Rahil (24:36):
You know, your post purchase surveys too long when <laugh>, you can't remember
Ash Melwani (24:40):
All the questions. I can't remember, I can't remember the question.
Rabah Rahil (24:41):
No, I'm totally teasey. I think that's brilliant. And shout out Jeremiah, he's, he's one of the, just knows a fantastic product, but he's just one of the just most awesome humans, dude. Like he's just, he's actually been on ro as he's such a just a, just an effing good dude man, really good guy. Um, yeah, Ash, that's a really clever way and I, I love that people have bought but aren't sold. That's a get that on the T-shirt. That's a really good line. And I think that's a fantastic mental model. I've never thought of post-purchase surveys that way. And it's gonna be interesting because to your point, if you have enough volume, the fidelity of the information becomes more of a priority then the statistical significance. Because I have enough, like if a hundred people say this, 200 people say this, 300 people say it's like I'm gonna listen to that 300 people to a thousand people. It's like, who cares, right? But if then you get the high, that high fidelity information where, and cuz no actually saves each question, right? It doesn't have to wait for one payload. Yeah. So I think they're, uh, you're all good there. So even if people don't finish, as long as they do a few questions, you're gonna get all that answer. Yeah. That's really clever Ash. Yeah, that's pretty strong. Yeah.
Ash Melwani (25:52):
Use it for your ads, use it for post purchase, use it for your funnels. Like there's so many questions like it, it's using all the, the context around you comments, the reviews, right? Especially your one star reviews. How one that not only shapes objections, right? So like one of our biggest complaints is like, oh, I didn't know how to use it so I wanna return it, right? Or they tried it in water and they hated it, but there's like 10 other ways you can try the product. Okay, well how do we, how do we turn that one star review into uh, handling that objection, right? Do we add more recipes to the lander? Do we add more recipes in the post purchase survey? I think, I mean, uh, post purchase emails, I think that is like using your comments, your one star review, one to three star reviews post purchase surveys. Even like if you're not, if you're on Amazon, Amazon buyers are very critical going there and like finding like the reviews there. Um, and then just even in your email too, I mean there's so much like in there that you could just ugh, like consolidate and just form a plan around it, you know? So I think a lot of people, you just have to sit down and do it. I think it's, it's a very tedious thing, but once you do it, it's, it's invaluable.
Rabah Rahil (27:03):
That's great. That's a great segment, man. That's really interesting. What, uh, okay, so now you have the post part. Is this, I guess before we move on, is this, was this the genesis for the recipe cards? Cause those look pretty cool. Yeah. You saw people needed more education in terms of how to consume.
Ash Melwani (27:19):
Yeah, a lot of people were like, when do I take it? How do I take it? And it's like, okay, how do we make sure every single person gets a guide instead? Cause like yeah, even if you have like a 50% open rate on email, not everyone's gonna see it, right? So like, I want this in your face, I want you, I want this on like your counter on your bedside table. Whenever you have a question, check it out. But yeah, I mean the, it's people loving it. So I think, and it's, it's a small investment to like, help ltv. So you, you can't like look at it as like, oh it's an added cost, this and that. Like just bake it in. Like just bake it in.
Rabah Rahil (27:56):
Yeah. And I also think too, there's two things that go to that cuz I was working with, uh, back in my agency we had a really cool men's care, like beard, beard stuff. And we started doing that and we saw a huge lift, um, in LTV to your point because consumption increased and so you can shorten the sales cycle. Cuz if people don't know how to use it and they're kind of, kind of sort of using it, then they never go through it. Whereas he was basically pacing his products to have, like, if you use it every day, it's like a month of consumption. And he had a sales cycle that was getting into close to 90 days and it's like, that doesn't work. Like, like why are people not using this? And it was an education issue. And so we started putting inserts in the package, um, like here's some cool ways you can style your beard.
Y y yada, just kind of, you know, like educational stuff and like how to elicit that. And then he went even further where he would make, um, basically like, uh, countertop organizers. And so like you could, uh, outta sight outta mind and so people were putting their beard care like under the sink or whatever, blah, blah. And now it was right in their face in this organizer. And that was like the craziest product thing cuz the, it was actually a really low margin product, like economic economics wise, it was terrible product. It was pretty much like a breakeven product. It was kind of expensive, it was kind of fancy, it was kind of hard to ship, but like the implications on the whole marketing ecosystem because people were not only that, there was kind of some knock on effects from people were saying like friends would comment on it and then so all this conversation come, so now you have these second, third order effects because everybody's looking at the product.
So I think that's really clever where, um, you're getting into some high level thinking. But again, I think kind of to Joel's point as well, like people can get so caught in like the arithmetic where it's like, to your point ash of like, dude, these are just people fucking trying to better their lives. They just want, they just wanna buy something that's gonna make them feel successful. And so like once you start losing that and you start just doing the math, it's like, man, this isn't, it's not the affiliate game, right? Where it's just a numbers game. Like you gotta remember, like if you can connect with somebody emotionally and you can make them feel successful, especially early on, Oh man, that's the, that's the game. Like it's game over. And then not only that, you have so much runway to really mess up <laugh>, quite frankly, down the line if you make them feel successful right off the bat because they believe in you and now they're like, man, I'm so smart for buying this product, et cetera, et cetera. I love that. So fascinating.
Ash Melwani (30:23):
So I think one of the biggest things, like even for cross net, right? Like it's a completely new sport, a new way to like ha like entertainment, right? I think do, do you guys have that problem with like the post-purchase? Like just education? Like how do I play this? Like how do I use this or, you know what I mean? So like how do you, like what are some ways that you guys tackled that? Um, over at cross net?
Joel Padron (30:44):
Yeah. Um, one, I'm just like soaking up so much knowledge where it's like, that was amazing, just learning those different tactics that you could utilize, especially like you said, on, on products that you replenish or reuse. Um, so that's the one of the differences where cross net really has isn't much of a repeat purchase, um, but it still is important to focus on exactly what you guys are saying that that experience after even you purchase, So we talked about pre click post click, now there's even post purchase, um, getting people hyped up by the time it op by the time it arrives to their door. So like even simple, that's
Rabah Rahil (31:17):
Joel Padron (31:18):
I would do even simple things like set up a an on sms, like it would, it would be a delivery notification like that it was delivered and like a jiff of like a UPS driver dropping it off at your door, <laugh>. And we ship through ups. So like we would have actual people be like, Hey, that's not my house. I'm like, it's just a text message <laugh>, but that's a sign that we have it where it's like so personalized that they really thought that I would, I had a recording of their own house and the package being delivered. So if you could do that, that's pretty good. Um, but yeah, on on the cross that side we still would focus on, um, so one of the be best ways it, well not the best, but it really started off growing by word of mouth. So you would see, if you set it up here, it's a game you have to play with other people.
So okay, you play with at least three others, so you're getting word of mouth out there. So if we're getting more people to play or even set up their net, it's a form of advertising for us. Um, so just being able to focus on that post-purchase experience of I want people to focus on playing. It sucks that we don't really have, you know, a lot of supplemental products or people aren't gonna buy another net, but just by getting it out there into the wild and people enjoying the product where a friend that played it might want it for themselves if they're going away to a different college or people just keep seeing it everywhere. Like, damn, I've seen that game everywhere. Maybe I should buy it for my son for, for Christmas this year. Um, and that, that was one of, of the big things too, where going slightly back to the post purchase is knowing who your audience is. So when I started Cross Net we all thought it was like that the person that's actually playing it, like you would think like a college crowd is what's buying it, but it really is parents buying it for their kids. Um,
Ash Melwani (32:55):
Joel Padron (32:56):
Yeah. Yeah, it's mostly parents buying it for their kids. So knowing who your audience is and then crafting your creative, your landing pages, your angles, everything towards that. So even like how it's safe to use, how it's easy to set up, how it's convenient, all these different things, um, really play a big factor in it. Um, but yeah, even even with a very little LTV lift, um, on cross net, it still was an important part of us to get people to take it out, be excited to play with it, explain to them how to play, um, and then just try to continue using it. Cuz it does take some time to set up, takes like five, 10 minutes. Um, so you gotta you gotta make people pretty excited to go through that initial friction in order to enjoy the game. Right,
Rabah Rahil (33:38):
Right. No, that's incredible. That's
Ash Melwani (33:41):
Super interesting. Yeah.
Rabah Rahil (33:43):
Ash, are you ready? This is a new segment. We actually finally have some Q and a. You wanna jump in? You ready to do this? Yeah, let's do it. Amazing. Do it. All right, let's see. Um, okay, we'll start with you Ash, and then we'll go to e Joel l If you could start a brand with any celebrity, who would it be?
Ash Melwani (34:02):
I think we, I think we did this one already. We did this one. Um, I think Tommy, you're
Rabah Rahil (34:07):
Ash Melwani (34:08):
Fired. I said, um, What's his name? Barto. Oh.
Rabah Rahil (34:12):
Oh, we did Courtney, we did do this. Yeah, we did do this. Okay.
Ash Melwani (34:15):
Rabah Rahil (34:15):
Joel, where would you go?
Joel Padron (34:17):
That's tough. I would just see like, who's got the most like, loyal and large fan base. So maybe I like basketball, so I'll probably go with like LeBron James or something like that where it's just, you could do so many different things and like he's been had such a great career for a long time where it could be something that's longevity focused or performance wise. Uh, so I think that's probably my role is
Rabah Rahil (34:38):
You're not burnt at all. Huh? You're, you're a heat guy, aren't you?
Joel Padron (34:42):
I am, I am a heat guy. And,
Rabah Rahil (34:44):
And he, he totally, totally ditched you guys.
Joel Padron (34:46):
Uh, we still winning baby.
Rabah Rahil (34:48):
You said, Hey, let's go. Yeah, busy. They're actually, they're actually, they're actually a teed up client now. Shout out Matthew, let's go. Ooh. Uh, yeah, yeah, it's really cool. What's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever gotten? We'll start with you this time, Joel, and then we'll go to Ash
Joel Padron (35:06):
<laugh>. Best piece of marketing advice I've gotten that. There's no perfect piece of marketing advice. Just there's no, there's no clear answer for everything. Stop. Like, you gotta go out there and test. Nobody's gonna hand it to you.
Rabah Rahil (35:21):
Look at this, The wise one, the wise words from the Floridian. All right, Mr. Milani, what you got for me?
Ash Melwani (35:28):
I think, um, I think one of the biggest things, right, is test everything, but also like, just can't be complacent. Um, I think when things are going well, you're like, okay, this is gonna last forever. You have to keep testing, you have to keep trying new things cuz like the minute it stops then everything falls apart, right? So just don't be complacent and just pretend like every day is a bad day and just keep going. <laugh>,
Joel Padron (35:57):
Rabah Rahil (35:57):
Don't think it's not horrible. I like that. Pretend like every day's a bad day. I, not in a pessimistic way, but
Ash Melwani (36:03):
Yeah. Like pretend every day your back's against the wall and they perform. Yeah,
Joel Padron (36:07):
I love that
Rabah Rahil (36:08):
Underdog mentality. Um, okay, what's the wildest comment you've ever gotten on an ad? Who wants to start? You wanna start? Ash? You got anything? I can start to give you guys some
Ash Melwani (36:20):
Rabah Rahil (36:21):
Oh man. It's not that wild, but
Ash Melwani (36:23):
It's not a we're actually Oh yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Rabah Rahil (36:26):
I was just gonna give you, it's not a comment or it's not that crazy, but I just find it hilarious because it's, uh, somehow our ads are now break cuz we're, we're starting to spend a little money on Facebook and our ads are breaking into like, not necessarily our dig demographic. And there was this old white lady, like middle America saying Happy birthday
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Rabah Rahil (36:53):
Birthday. So if you're out there and you're listening to this, we
Ash Melwani (36:59):
Trial for Triple <laugh>.
Rabah Rahil (37:02):
If you're whatever you're selling jars of marinade or whatever clue, let's go
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Rabah Rahil (37:10):
Isn't that great? Okay, What do you got for me Ash?
Ash Melwani (37:13):
Um, okay, so is that a comment? But it was a post in the community, which is actually insane. So we, we came out with a, a sex product called it lust, right? So this was last year, February Valentine's Day we launched lust and chocolate covers strawberry collage and protein powder, right? And I think a few months later somebody posted in the community saying, I freaking love you guys. I am finally pregnant. And I was like, Oh my God, that's amazing.
Rabah Rahil (37:42):
That's kinda awesome, right?
Ash Melwani (37:44):
You change live. Amazing. And it had that I think had the most engagement in the community for like, oh my god, I was insane. It was Absolut. Insane. Do
Rabah Rahil (37:52):
You still sell lust? Is that still on the roster?
Ash Melwani (37:55):
It is. It is on the roster, Yeah.
Rabah Rahil (37:57):
That's amazing. I didn't know you
Ash Melwani (37:58):
Guys well, promotion, like that's the thing. No, no promotion and it just, it sells really well.
Rabah Rahil (38:02):
Low, low key. Amazing. Great name. Love the name. Yeah. Lost. All right. Joe, what do you got for us?
Joel Padron (38:08):
Oh man, I should, I shared a good one earlier. That was probably one of my favorites. Um, I would say the funny ones, it's not necessarily an ad cuz obviously you get all the cuss out ones, all those like, yeah,
The funniest one is like, we have our, our customer service like live widget and um, a lot of people will text it and it's always like the weirdest context things where I wish I could stay, I wish I could say half of these, but they are just not okay to say it. Um, but the, I'll say the clean one that's pretty funny is just like, babe, like people texting, like I'll do whatever, like trying to like cut, like win somebody over, ask somebody out and it's like, dude, you're literally texting a volleyball net right now. Like's funny, you'll dude literally a volleyball net
Ash Melwani (38:55):
Rabah Rahil (38:56):
Sir, this is a Wendy's drive through <laugh>.
Ash Melwani (38:59):
Uh, dude that reminds me of like, even in our like Postscript account, you can see people responding back and I saw one where it's like somebody was like responding back to somebody goes, You're a deadbeat dad, you're never here for your kid. And I'm like, Ma'am, we're selling college in <laugh>.
Joel Padron (39:17):
That's, that's what I'm saying there so many,
Ash Melwani (39:21):
How do you mess that up? Like it's a long message. So you're in there texting a long ass message to
Rabah Rahil (39:27):
Joel Padron (39:27):
Were pick your comments, you've been missing out on some good humor apparently.
Rabah Rahil (39:31):
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, at the worst, just check your comments for, uh, comedic value. Uh, okay, this is a, a little more tactical, what keeps an e-commerce business from hitting 1 million in revenue. Let's start with you Ash, and then we'll go to you Joel.
Ash Melwani (39:48):
Um, I think there's, there's two sides to it. I think there's the marketing side to it and I think there's the finance and op side. Um, I'll take the
Rabah Rahil (39:58):
Marketing. Ron is rubbing off on you.
Ash Melwani (40:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I think on the marketing side, it's like one I think people try to do too much at in the beginning. Um, like even some of my mentor pass calls, like there are brands that are trying to promote all of their products at one time. Um, like even if like, if say like a supple, I had a call with a supplement company and it's like they're trying to, they're just trying to advertise everything, right? Yeah. And it's like, pick one, pick the route that you want to go and what's the best, like the lowest C for the product, highest LTV product and just go all in on that and then on the back end figure out everything else, right? So don't spread yourself too thin, um, just like, just silo and just gun for it. And then once you figure that out properly, then you can start applying it to other things. So I think just go, just narrow the focus a little bit and I think you'd be good.
Rabah Rahil (40:52):
Incredible. What about you Joel?
Joel Padron (40:54):
Yeah, kind of have similar sentiment where your light, you haven't figured much out yet, um, where you really need to figure out what's your one, your best piece of creative, like what's resonating the most, um, and getting the message out effectively. So if you're trying to reach seven figures, you need to figure out what's resonating again and then how can you push that? Um, the brands that I see that are in the very low, like seven figures typically don't have those answers yet. Um, like if you were to ask them like, who's your target demographic? And they can't answer that question. Um, so I feel like you need to really be laser focused on that kind of test a little bit less and hone in on, you know, those core components. Um, after you get, you know, around that seven figure break into the seven figures is when you can start expanding out kind of like ashes saying like now you've, you could focus on expanding your product catalog, all these other factors or channels even if you're advertising, but in the beginning you need to still build a core business and understand it.
Rabah Rahil (41:53):
I love that. That's absolutely it. I think that's super smart. Um, okay, cool. Let's go to some Twitter ones. All right, so this is from Jess at Hire fire team who he's just absolutely, I love him. He's such a troll, but he just cracks me out. I love him. Um, and maybe you can kind of answer this Joelle, but the question is, why is there only four live ads in the cross net ads library and three of them link to Amazon?
Joel Padron (42:24):
Okay. I can't answer to the Amazon. Um, I can't answer to that part. Um, I could, I definitely know a little bit more on like the four ads. So that would be an example of just getting, like there are different personas that we've worked on at cross net where's, like we said, there's parents, there's a college crowd, there's a training tool, there's organizations, um, so being able to have like a landing page that's tailored towards all of those and then making variants of your creative, um, that highlight that. Like I know we had a ton of success making custom landing pages where for example, um, if we're going after parents, just cuz I was the biggest, you know, the biggest one that we could go after every single review was around a parent and how it benefits the kid. All the benefit points were talking in that frame and that worked really well. So what I think that they should do is, uh, reflect that in the creative variance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, the Amazon I can't speak to, but I know, uh, creative they should be testing a little bit more highlighting those different audiences.
Rabah Rahil (43:30):
Amazing. Fantastic. Um, okay, this one Ash, what do you think or both of you guys can answer, what's the single most important lever for scaling ad accounts right now? This is from Bow tide, Kamodo, what a great handle.
Ash Melwani (43:47):
Um, I think offers offers and landing pages and really like making sure you understand your LTV metrics.
Rabah Rahil (43:56):
Amazing, amazing LTV offers landing pages. What are your thoughts on PDPs? No good or you use them or no. Or pro product display pages? Haven. Sorry, Haven.
Ash Melwani (44:08):
We haven't used them. In fact I like, I want to redo them based off of the data that we're seeing. So like people who do search. So for example, our main landers convert anywhere from like five to 8% on on a good day. It's amazing. Oh, that's good on an okay dates. Yeah. Um, but when I look at people who search for the brand and they come in through a product page, the conversion rate is really low. So I want to redo it a little bit. I don't think we have like all the, the landing page has all the aspects of the objections, like the whole story and everything. Product page is, here's what the product is, here's the supplement panel by, right? So I think we could do a little bit better job over there. Um, but I know there are some brands that are like crushing with, with product pages, but also to their point, there's a lot more information on it. So if you can, the whole point is to handle the objections that if you could do that with your product page, I think people will have success there.
Rabah Rahil (45:07):
Amazing. Yeah. What about you Joel?
Joel Padron (45:09):
Yeah, I would say what I see, uh, that prevents brands from scaling, like what lets them really achieve the skill that they want is, uh, aov. So boosting aov where I see a ton, um, there's so many brands that, like the first plan of attack that we do is like, okay, you know, we're not at our, we're not at our ROS targets. We have a bit to go, but it's because your AOV is still low. Um, so pretty similar to what Asha thing. The way you really do that is offer testing, landing pages is a great vehicle to accomplish that. So we've had success like bundling or, um, highlighting more of your top selling products. So I know one feature that I really enjoy on Triple Dash is, um, it, it helps you really find what products are frequently purchased together, um, <affirmative>. So again, how I like to work backwards instead of you just coming up with random ideas, just go look at what people tend to buy together and now offer that as a bundle, um, to try to increase the aov. Now you have more room to spend for your customer acquisition cost and that's likely gonna unlock the scale that you wanna achieve.
Rabah Rahil (46:10):
Yeah. Brilliant. Fantastic. Thank you for the question. Bow tide, kamodo. Okay, let's do, let's do one more. Well Ash, you have a good one too that you submitted. Do you wanna do yours or I have another one cause we're bumping against it. Well let, we'll just see if we can sneak it in. So, uh, Joel, this would be really good for you, Ash. Not super applicable and I can kind of answer this as well. This is from, oh fucking a Mead brother. Get outta here. <laugh>. What is me? Get outta here Greg. What are you doing? Get down here and play some damn pickle ball. Um, how is it going from an in-house brand agents, um, in-house brand to agency life? Would you, what would you recommend to someone just starting out?
Joel Padron (46:50):
That's a great question. Um, I would recommend going brand first. Um, mm-hmm. <affirmative> again, especially like I mentioned, being able to go really, really deep is where you're gonna pick up a lot of those skill sets. Um, when you're under an agency now, it's kind of like apply those learnings across the board. Um, so I really recommend going deep first and I'm very, very glad that I went that route, especially, um, at Cross net just because there was so many learnings where, like I mentioned, we're in multiple different countries. Um, there's a lot of unique challenges. We're we're in multiple channels, so there's learnings that now I could apply to brands that are eight, nine figures that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. Um, so I would strongly, strongly recommend go deep, get as much learning as you can. Um, agency is good, very good for learning. Um, a lot of times if you wanna specialize into one specific category, um, so you can become really good at that category, but I still think there's the best route is go brand first and then spread your wings more.
Rabah Rahil (47:49):
Yeah, I don't know if I would argue with that. I think that's pretty smart. I did the opposite where, um, well that's not true. I did a lot of lower level brand stuff, um, when I was younger, but, um, eventually moved into the agency life. I will say agency life's just a lot harder. It's like having a bunch of mistresses versus one wife. Um, it's just a lot, lot harder when things are going good. It's great. You're, I'm a king, this life is great, I'm printing money, I'm a God. Um, and then it just takes two or three accounts to kind of, the wheels start shaking and it is just stress to the gills. Uh, great money. You'll probably make more money at agency, quite frankly until you get to kind of higher like Joel's position, like higher level at an agency. But you, you'll probably make, uh, more money at an agency than an in-house brand.
But it's in my opinion, a lot harder kind of to all the points Joe was making. It's a lot harder to learn because you're expected to just crush, crush, crush. There's just crazy incentives. The economics are a lot weirder in an agency than they are in an in-house brand where the, you're just a burn rate and you figure it out where an agency life, you're running a book, you're expected to do X, y and z. Um, is agency life in my opinion is just, or from my experience is just really hard. Uh, great money, but it's very hard. Um, in-house brand is uh, in my opinion the way to go. But I think for all the, the points Joel made that I would, I would recommend going in-house brand and then moving into either a boutique agency or actually, um, agency life.
Ash Melwani (49:13):
So. Amazing. Well we were an agency first before we started Avi, um, really know that news. Yeah, yeah. <laugh> people, I, we've even on you're not your as we, we were, so we had a boutique agency, um, for like four years, but we worked on a lot of health and wellness, uh, companies. Yeah. So we were like very niche in that, in that aspect. You knew. Um, but to like both your points, I think just, there was one thing that really set us off the edge and we're like, alright, we have to start. Avi was like, you can get a brand like out the gate and like pumping, like marketing is doing well, but they haven't covered their other aspects of it, like finance, supply chain, this and that and that is where we kind of like, we're at the mercy of them, right? So if, if they fuck up their finances and they can't supply anymore inventory, this and that, and then all right, now we have to take a break for two months for the brand, like where are we gonna make our money?
That's where it was like, alright, we can't keep doing this. At least let us start a brand where all of it is on us. And Robert, it to your point, obviously the first two years we didn't take a paycheck. Um, and it, it's like, it is a labor of love. But until you, once you get to that point, okay, now you start some, making some real money. But you've learned, you've, you've taken what you've learned from the agency side of how brands have failed and you know, not to do certain things. So I, I like both sides honestly. I think, I think the learnings are great on, on both sides.
Rabah Rahil (50:40):
Yeah. I'm actually glad you brought that point up cuz that would be how I put it. Uh, like put a bow on it is when you're working with a brand, you control all the actors in a play. When you're working at an agency, it's your, your, uh, how do I say it? Their fault, your problem. And that's a horrible place to be. Yeah. It's a horrible place to be where it's like, Hey, I'm out of my top selling skews. Why, why is revenue down? Well, like if the top three or four players are out on the basketball team, how do you expect us to win games? And you want me to escape scale paid and like, and so that's a real big challenge, uh, that those are great points, Ash, where I know a lot of really good people that know product well, they're horrible operators have no clue how economics work. How no clue how supply chain works. They're just great at selling product and like they've just,
Ash Melwani (51:29):
They came up with a
Rabah Rahil (51:29):
Good product headwinds. Yeah, they, you could just go into a lot of headwinds. Um, that's fantastic. Okay, I know we're pushing up against it. So since we did a q and a this time, um, we're gonna try and make this more regular. So we're not gonna do any creepy questions. Joel, are you guys taking more clients at Homestead? Where can the people find you? Let the people know this time is yours my friend.
Joel Padron (51:49):
Absolutely. Yes. If you like to work with us, get an audit, uh, go to homestead studio dot, happy to talk to you, get you live before q4. Um, if you wanna reach out to me, check me out on Twitter. Joel Padron, um, sliding dms. I always answer. Might not post too much, but, um, always happy to help.
Rabah Rahil (52:08):
You're just out there lurking in the Twitter verse when you, when you see some, some good pickle ball trash talk, you'll pop up for, for a couple tweeter there. <laugh> busy
Joel Padron (52:16):
Put in work, pop up when there's pickle ball.
Rabah Rahil (52:19):
Exactly. Love it. All right folks, if you drive by a vitamin shop, what needs to happen? Asani,
Ash Melwani (52:25):
You need to get outta your car, walk into the vitamin shop, ask them where obvious is moving, ask them why it's not on the top shelf. Moving to the top shelf. Take a picture and tag me on Twitter. Um, uh, yeah and uh, I'm on Mentor Pass. Um, you know, Black Friday's coming up, so if you need some solid, uh, strategy, let me know and uh, follow me on Twitter at ashburn melani.
Rabah Rahil (52:52):
Amazing, amazing. Um, and if you do wanna get more involved in Triple Well, we are triple whale.com. We have a fantastic newsletter that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday that Ashani has actually contributed to. Joel, we gotta get you some essays in there. Um, you can subscribe [email protected] Yeah, let's go triple well.com/whale mail. Um, subscribe right there. What else we got? We got a fantastic YouTube channel and if you actually like this podcast, you should definitely share it with your friends and, uh, leave us a review or subscribe to YouTube channel. I think I already said that. What else we got? I think that's it. Melan, right? That's it. Done.
Ash Melwani (53:26):
Leave some questions for next time.
Rabah Rahil (53:29):
Oh yeah. Tweet at us, uh, either at Triple Whale or at Ash or I, and we'll start to aggregate these questions. Tommy's fantastic at putting all these in a notion doc for me, except he, he reused that one, so, you know, we'll put 'em in the, put 'em in the uh, cage for a couple hours. You're done, you're fired. No, I love you Tommy. Um, fantastic. That's another ad spin of the books. Joelle, thank you so much man. You gotta get you down here to Austin or I'll, I'll come over to Miami, we'll play some pickle. We'll get it done.
Joel Padron (53:55):
Thank you for having me. Very excited for that. See you soon.
Rabah Rahil (53:58):
Yeah, appreciate it, Ash. Always a pleasure, my man. We also need to get you down to Austin, figure all the stuff out and we'll get you down here sooner or later.
Ash Melwani (54:07):
<laugh> can't wait. I want to come man
Rabah Rahil (54:11):
Soon. Well, and you waited out the heat. It's nice. It's beautiful weather now. It's fantastic now, now it's like the golden era in Austin, so it's fantastic. All right folks, that's another ad spin of the books. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see y'all on the flip.
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