How To Effectively Build & Use Creative for Campaigns

December 1, 2022


Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale


Wesley St. Amand

Episode Description

In this episode of ROAS, we go over creative, how to make good creative, and why you need to be doing your own things rather than following trends. #ROAS

Notes & Links

📧Subscribe to Whale Mail for exclusive industry insights and in-depth marketing breakdowns: https://www.getrevue.co/profile/tripl

🐦 Follow us on Twitter for Industry insights https://twitter.com/triplewhale

Follow the people featured in this episode here:

- Rabah's Twitter: https://twitter.com/rabahrahil
- Wesley's Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesstaa21


Wesley St. Amand (00:00):

And so I think like the biggest thing is, you know, if you're a brand looking to hire a creative agency, let them go to work.

Rabah Rahil (00:13):

All right,

Rabah Rahil (00:14):

Folks, we're back episode 25 and I am with the creative genius. The hockey turned superstar creator west St. Omond Wes, how are you? My friend.

Wesley St. Amand (00:27):

I'm doing awesome, brother. How are you? Thank you for the

Rabah Rahil (00:29):

Intro. Uh, oh dude. I'm doing, doing well. I'm doing well out here in Austin. It's a beautiful sunny day. We got our big south by party. Where's this podcast find you today.

Wesley St. Amand (00:38):

I am in blue mountain, Ontario, Canada.

Rabah Rahil (00:41):

Oh, beautiful. How long have you been in Canada?

Wesley St. Amand (00:44):

Whole life, baby.

Rabah Rahil (00:45):

Born and bred. Huh?

Wesley St. Amand (00:46):

Born and bred. Born and bred other than a couple, couple years here and there when I was out of the country. But whole time I've been here

Rabah Rahil (00:54):

That maple syrup flowing through the veins strong. It is.

Wesley St. Amand (00:57):

It is <laugh>.

Rabah Rahil (00:59):

So you did, uh, obviously hockey's a big, big thing in Canada, right? You did a little stint, uh, in hockey before you started your creative career, right?

Wesley St. Amand (01:08):

Yep. Yeah. So I played, um, I played basically since I was like a little kid, my whole whole life, and that was all I really knew and I pretty much dedicated my whole life to, you know, trying to be the best I could at hockey. Fortunately, it didn't work out. I had a, a hip surgery that kind of shut things down for me. And that kind of led me into, you know, how, where I am now.

Rabah Rahil (01:32):

How far did you go in hockey in terms of like, uh, professional or what have you?

Wesley St. Amand (01:37):

Yeah, so in Canada they have like the basically minor hockey, which is like, when you're under 16, they have like different levels. So they have like MD a, a, a triple a is like the highest. So I played AAA my whole life up until I was 16. And then after you're 16, if you're good enough, you go on to what's called junior. So they have junior, um, D C B and a, and then they have, uh, major junior, which doesn't, if you play major junior, you're not allowed to go play the college route. So I, uh, I played junior a and eventually the goal was to go play college hockey in the states. Um, so I played junior a, um, in a couple different places within Canada.

Rabah Rahil (02:20):

Oh, fantastic. So you're pretty good then.

Wesley St. Amand (02:23):

I'm alright. I'm a little, I'm a beer leaguer now. So <laugh> little, little washed up, wrapping

Rabah Rahil (02:28):

Up. You wrapping up on this stuff. You, you told me we originally scheduled and you're like, RAA, you can't fuck with my ice time, bro. I'm sorry. We gotta, we gotta push the pod to, you're still getting out there though, right?

Wesley St. Amand (02:38):

Yeah. Well, man, it was, we had the, we had the pod scheduled and uh, January 4th, they, there was new like COVID restrictions. So I couldn't, I couldn't play hockey. And uh, so since January 4th there was like no hockey and then it just got put back on and it happened to be the exact same time the pod was scheduled and uh, I hadn't played in two months, so I was like, can we, what can we do here, Rob, give we schedule.

Rabah Rahil (03:03):

I love it. Is it better to play outside or inside? Have you played on like a lake or like kind of proper stuff? Of course. Right.

Wesley St. Amand (03:10):

Dude. I, I love playing. I absolutely love playing outside. It's super fun. As long as it's not too cold, like some of our days here when it gets like, you know, minus 20 Celsius that's no, thanks. A

Rabah Rahil (03:23):

Little spicy.

Wesley St. Amand (03:24):

Uh, yeah, a little spicy. Um, I'm not a huge, huge winter guy. Um, but you

Rabah Rahil (03:29):

Live in Canada

Wesley St. Amand (03:30):

<laugh> I know, I know. I be, I became more of a winter guy this year, cuz I've had to, um, with all the travel restrictions and stuff, but um, yeah, like playing on a pond, there's just nothing like it. It's it's an unreal time. Do you play hog at all?

Rabah Rahil (03:46):

No, no, no, no. I'm a, I'm a desert man. I don't do, I don't do the cold. I hate the cold. I got, I grew up in Indiana and I got out as quick as I could, man. I I've never had a winter for like nine years now. And you will, you'll never take me back. Maybe like a Colorado or something where it's fun, but again is like flat, cold, terrible. Like not the path.

Wesley St. Amand (04:05):

Yeah. Not for me.

Rabah Rahil (04:07):

How does it work when you're playing on a pond though? Like the Zamboni, like cuz don't you grout the ice or like, uh, make your tracks on the so kind of like, do you just kind of just deal with it?

Wesley St. Amand (04:17):

Yeah, dude. So there's uh, like we used to make, uh, ranks. I got at cottages and up at our cottage, like growing up and basically like it's the most like Canadian thing ever. We literally like take, take an ice auger, like these big machines that like dig holes in the ice and then, uh, basically you take a hose and a pump and it pu sucks water outta the lake and then you flood it, flood it with without <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (04:41):

This is like a, like a OG DIY Zoni

Wesley St. Amand (04:45):

Yeah. OG that's DIY <laugh> dude. Can't beat the price either. It's free basically.

Rabah Rahil (04:53):

Oh my gosh. That's amazing. So how do you transition from this? Like wanting to be hockey, superstar, getting super close then, you know, getting the hip thing and then I'm sure that's mentally challenging cuz I I've met you. You, you are the born and bred, like in terms of stature, like you, you're an athletic build. You're the perfect size for hockey. Like that had to be kind of mentally challenging to kind of get that like now what kind of step, right when you're you have this one fixating goal and then ultimately there there's, it's stolen away from you. How did you kind of recenter your life after that?

Wesley St. Amand (05:29):

Yeah, man, it was, uh, it was a really tough time in my life. Um, I went out to, I was playing junior a when I was 18 and I ended up, I hurt my hip, so I had to get hip surgery. So I, I missed a year. I had to take a year off. I had this surgery, I recovered doctors were like, yeah, you're never gonna play again. Kind of thing. I ended up, I played my 19 and 20 year old year. Um, which is like your max out age and junior before you either go pro or go play college hockey in the states or whatever. So I was, uh, when I went back, I was just in so much pain. Like hockey just became like kind of like a chore almost mm-hmm <affirmative> and it was just like, I was 19, 20 years old and like having troubles, like walking upstairs after games and um, I lost, uh, I lost one of my buddies who I played hockey with and then my grandpa passed away within like that same week.

Rabah Rahil (06:26):

Oh wow.

Wesley St. Amand (06:27):

And it was in my 20 year, 20 year, old year and I was just like, not having fun playing hockey. So I pretty much just like shut it down. And I like booked a flight to Hawaii and uh, I was living out of like a van there and like just learning,

Rabah Rahil (06:41):

I didn't

Wesley St. Amand (06:41):

Know this. Yeah. Learning how to surf and just, uh, living that like nomad kind of lifestyle. Um, yeah, doing like some freelance stuff for my, my computer and yeah, basically that was like, it was, it was tough man. Cause it was like, I was so dedicated and like the, I, I become super obsessed with things in my, in my life. And that was like my obsession from like 12 to basically 20. And that was like, literally all I did. Like I didn't really party too much or do any of that stuff like growing up. So it was tough, but you know, it was, uh, luckily like led me into, you know, this now and super grateful that it has.

Rabah Rahil (07:24):

Yeah. So tell me, give me a little bit of color behind that. So I, I just pictured you the, the surfing bum living out of like a, a VW west Follia, just kind of just chilling. Oh, you know, gotta catch the waves. How do you transition from that to like this incredible creator you're super, just really detailed, focused, like almost everything opposite or not to say like surfers aren't detail focused, but there's just a different vibe. Right. Because I got really into mountain climbing and there's a bunch of parallels to kind of dirt, bagging and surfing where it's like, if you wanna be good at surfing, you wanna be good at climbing. That's all you do. It's literally all you can do. Like you have nothing else in your life. Economics don't matter. Nothing else matters. It's just getting on the rock and, you know, sending it or, I mean, for a surf, it's kind of the same thing, but different. Right. It's just like catching waves. And so how did that transition, like, is that more of a function of like, you've always had that because of your, your, your background in hockey where you hockey is very attention to detail and there's so many aspects of the game in terms of physicality, in terms of mental, in terms of strategy, like gimme some color there.

Wesley St. Amand (08:31):

Yeah. I think honestly, like hockey has been like the biggest blessing in my life when it comes to like a work standpoint. Um, just from like a young age, they literally like train your brain and you know, they really teach you about like discipline, like doing the right thing, like going the extra mile. Like, and if you don't do that, like you don't make it to the junior a level or you don't make it to the pro level cuz you, you get eaten alive. So like, I think a lot of that, like I, I do have like a, a side of me that's very like chill and relaxed and you know, I like to have fun and I'm very loose in stuff with like the creative process. But at the same time, it's like, you know, anyone on my team knows that like being late, like things like that, like drive me nuts. Like, um, and I think that's definitely, um, a huge thing that that was just hot in hockey, um, doing the right thing, going the extra mile and like discipline. Um, and I think that's like translated over, um, into work and, and life and kind of all areas.

Rabah Rahil (09:34):

I love that. Tell me a little bit about how you built your company because you guys have some, uh, one, you make incredible stuff. Uh, so tell me about your company, but two, you guys operate at a, a fairly higher price point. Like you're not overpriced, but you're definitely expensive. Right? So there's, that's a, it's a different, um, cohort of people that you are working with versus most creative agencies have kind of a, a lower entry point into, um, their business where you guys, you know, you gotta net up to get the good stuff from you guys. And so how did you kind of, did you start there or did you work your way up there?

Wesley St. Amand (10:10):

Yeah, no, that's a great question, man. It's uh, we, we started our agency basically. I was, you know, running all my own, like scaling drop shipping stores, like to the moon, like crazy, um, like labeling products and just like scaling the shit outta things. Oops. Sorry if I, if I, oh

Rabah Rahil (10:29):

Yeah, it's all good.

Wesley St. Amand (10:30):

Yeah. Um, but yeah, so, so kind of the client business kind of like happened organically and we started doing it for clients. Um, but I always, like, I always like really admired like companies like, you know, Harmon brothers and chamber media and some of these companies who like wanna have a massive, like I think just they've built a massive moat around their company with creative and the type of creative, because like I, you know, U GC and all these other, um, like just very direct response, top funnel style ads are great. And there's a place for them within ad accounts. Absolutely. But I also think like if you're a company or you're an econ brand and you can leverage like very outta the box, creative that's one on brand, but two also has that like direct response aspect. You can build a really big mode around your company because it's very hard to duplicate and it's very hard to replicate and it takes a lot of bodies.

Wesley St. Amand (11:24):

So we to answer your question, we were doing a, a lot of ad buying for clients and we were doing like, you know, more lower budget, creative. And we had, you know, more clients and it was just, to me, it was exhausting dealing with like lower budget clients. Yep. Um, and it was just, you know, you give them the world, it what it feels like. And they just like, they don't understand or appreciate like what goes into things. So we kind of, I wanted to, to open up production and do really, I've always been like super creative in my mind. And um, I wanted to be able to add creative that was like really outta the box and like really got people like wanting to watch ads. Um, because most of us, like you see an ad when you're scrolling, it's like, boom, next next.

Wesley St. Amand (12:12):

And so we were like, I, I really wanted to create stuff that like one was engaging fun, exciting to watch. And then like also like had that e-com side where it's like, it actually drives rev and like creates results. So we, uh, we luckily like, you know, short story long, we, we got in the door with, uh, persona nutrition. They're owned by Nale. Um, we pitched them this concept. They're like, yeah, we get pitched like all the time. Like we get pitched like 200 times a week. Um, so we're not gonna give you hardly any budget. So I was like, okay, well what can you give us? So they gave us $4,500 us for the first production. It was like no money. It was, but I had this concept and an idea that they approved. Um, and they were like, okay, let's, let's see you run it.

Wesley St. Amand (12:59):

Um, so we did this big production and that was like our first side into like the bigger production side. I, I lost money on the deal. Um, but that ad has went on today. It's got over 50 million views. It's drove million. Yeah. Millions, millions in sales. Um, and you know, we were able to do a lot of like PR stunts out of it. And then we've slowly just over the last eight to 10 months, like really built out the production side of our company and like doubled down on that creating ads, um, you know, that are extremely fun and exciting. And, um, yeah, we're working on deals with like puffy mattress. What we just gotta deal with puffy mattress that we're building out a campaign for now. And so, yeah, just really trying to double down and go all in on like making ads and content. That's like super fun.

Rabah Rahil (13:47):

I love that, man. It it's so funny. The, these high performing kind of successful people, there's always that pivot point in their life are inflection point, if you will, where you have to bet on yourself. Right. And so we had, uh, uh, one of my favorites, Sean, actually a, a Canadian who runs audit, who was

Wesley St. Amand (14:05):

Actually, I listen to that. So good.

Rabah Rahil (14:07):

Yeah. He was actually a beast paying. Yeah. He is a beast and he was actually paying people at a loss, um, just to learn. And so there's like, that's such an interesting, I didn't know that you took a loss on that, uh, that first project. And then that was the springboard into all of your success. How, how fascinating I love that.

Wesley St. Amand (14:25):

Um, yeah. And

Rabah Rahil (14:27):

What like skills or like how, how did you gain all this mastery around being able to run a huge creative production cuz the things that you guys are doing are, are fairly intricate and there's just a lot of moving parts. How did you gain all that? I mean, it's almost in a way like a mini movie where you you're booking talent, you're booking sets, you're booking, you know, equipment or you're making sure all the equipment is there and uh, booking talent and like talent's the most expensive. So you need to make sure that all this stuff is there to get the talent, you know, in and out as quickly as possible or not. You're usually gonna start to blow up with the economics. How did you gain all this?

Wesley St. Amand (15:05):

Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been a process, like I said, like the first, uh, kind of high production thing we did was in may of last year. And that was like the first one that like really took off and hit. And since then it's been like a huge process ever since to like really nail down. And we're always kind of tweaking things as we go. But, um, we brought on, uh, a guy and I actually gave up equity in my company. His name is, uh, Steph Delco. He's a big, uh, film production guy from Toronto. Um, and I met him in may. We started working together, um, doing some other stuff and he just like these creatives, like I just think like creative, you can't put a price on, on their knowledge and their expertise because I think like there's a lot of like hacks you can do within ad accounts and like, you know, super hacky things.

Wesley St. Amand (15:57):

And it's like at the end of the day, any large company that you see that like, you know, and remember it's like creative has been a huge thing. That's like really moved the needle for them, whether it's like big PR campaigns, like stuff like that. So I met staff and he's, um, he's really helped us develop the whole production side of the company while like mend it, like, you know, molding it with the e-comm like direct response kind of style of stuff that actually performs. So through his network and people we know we've been able to like really bring the right people on board and I'm con I'm pretty much constantly finding like, you know, there's a million like direct response markers out there. Um, but I think like creatives are hard to come by and people who like really think outside the box. So we're really trying to bring on more and more creative people, um, who can come up with like wild ideas that we can kind of mold with that process. So yeah, it's, it's been a bit of a journey and we're constantly tweaking and every little production is a little bit different based on the needs that, you know, it requires. Um, but yeah, it's like we have casting directors now we have script writers. We have the whole whole nine yards. We have set designers and everything is built out custom per brand. So

Rabah Rahil (17:18):

That's incredible, man. That's so cool. And that's another actually heuristic of really successful people is you wanna go fast, go alone. You wanna go far, you know, partner up and find the people that can take you there cuz yeah. You one, you're not gonna be able to do it all. And for, for some reason, if you are just multifaceted and talented and you can do it all. Yeah, you, you, it's just not sustainable where you, you just burn out where you just, you can't do all these things at once. There's some, there's gonna be people that are gonna be better at doing things, um, than you are. And I think that's just so especially being so young man, if to kind of figure this stuff out so quickly is just, it's so incredible. Thank you. Okay. One more question for the, the main segment and then we'll move on to the value add. Um, what advice would you give to kind of aspiring creators that you wish you had received?

Wesley St. Amand (18:04):

Um, the biggest advice I would say is don't follow trends. Only trends are good sometimes. Um, like what other companies are doing, um, things like that. But I do think that there's ways where you can come up with your own ideas and concepts and it may take taking last at the start to, to ideate them and, and be able to be like this actually works. Um, but I think like when things are your own ideas and your own concepts, um, you can charge more money for them. Um, because they're unique and other, other people can't execute them. So I would say like, you know, ideas that are unique to your company and that your company can execute, um, versus just doing what everyone else is doing. Um, I think that's a big way to like really move the needle.

Rabah Rahil (19:01):

I love that. And to your point too, it kind of implicitly builds a moat around your business because, um, when you're leading, like it's hard to leapfrog you, like you can copy people, but if you're copying me, you're always gonna be a step behind me because you can never leapfrog me because I'm always at the head of the pack kind of tip of the spear, pushing these very unique ideas forward versus copiers are just always gonna be a step behind by definition because they have to wait for you to do the thing, to copy

Wesley St. Amand (19:27):

Dude, a million percent. Like we've seen people like try trying to rip her ads. And like I say this all the time, like, you know, when we're, when we're like, I think intention is everything. And, and when we're on sets for brands for our internal brands, like it, it really matters of like what the sets feel like. Like I'm, I'm OB, like I burn in sense like all the time, like I'm obsessed with Sage it up, like Sage it up, dude, cuz it's like, even, even on set like the vibe, like are people laughing? Are people having fun? Like, and, and you know, we've had productions that were, we're like, fuck we missed on that one. Um, and, and nine times outta 10, it's like the vibe is off and it's like, it feels forced or like whatever it is. Um, so I think like that is like energetically. Like you can really tell, you know, it's like in the creation of triple away, like there's so much energy and like smart minds behind that behind your guys' company. Um, that, there's a reason why it's successful because it's like, there's there's energy and momentum behind it. And I think it's the same. And no matter what you do, people can feel like when they watch an ad, they can be like, okay, like this company actually like enjoys what they're doing. Um, and they're actually like wanting to provide us like value and entertainment.

Rabah Rahil (20:42):

I love that, man. I love that. Yeah. There's uh, I think one thing that people always have and always will have is a very highly tuned bullshit detector, big time that people can, can definitely sense insincerity or to your point, like forced. Like it, it just, it just feels off you can't, it's hard to articulate why. Yep. But you can articulate that it feels off and then that's enough. And you're like, ah, this, this is it. I'm out.

Wesley St. Amand (21:07):

Yeah. I love that. So it's weird year.

Rabah Rahil (21:09):

Yep. You made it to the second segment. The value add segment love. This is why the people bought the ticket west. Let's go hard. Okay. So what are the best and hardest? What are the best parts and then kind of worst or hardest parts about running disrupt?

Wesley St. Amand (21:24):

I think, I think the best parts is, um, one being on set with like your team and when you, you know, you pull a production together when there's 30 people on set and you're like, holy crap, like we're making this thing. And then I think the after of like seeing the final like piece that you've made is like really awesome. And then obviously the performance side of it is like is good and bad because it's like, you, you know, if it doesn't perform and then, you know, if it does perform, so that's one thing that's like ki kind of scary. And then, you know, I think it's just like managing client expectations. Um, as you know, like you, you had an agency, um, just managing people's expectations and like creative is something that's very subjective. And I think that's the, the trickiest thing to like articulate because like what one person thinks is amazing. Some people think is like brutal. So

Rabah Rahil (22:20):

Yeah. That's definitely something that would be a challenge, getting all the, all the stakeholders kind of almost like hurting cats in a way. Right.

Wesley St. Amand (22:27):

And, and also getting people on board with like out of the box ideas.

Rabah Rahil (22:32):


Wesley St. Amand (22:33):

Because a lot of the times people are just like, so stuck in that one, like narrow mind frame, you know what I mean?

Rabah Rahil (22:41):

Especially like established companies, cuz you're dealing with, you know, bigger, bigger brands who have, you know, some kind of quote unquote legacy, blah, blah. It's much easier when you have these, you know, earlier on brands where it's like, Hey, I, I don't have anything to lose. Let's go.

Wesley St. Amand (22:55):

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rabah Rahil (22:56):

Let's try this versus um, when you have kind of more, uh, quote established brands, it can be, um, a harder sell if you will. Yeah. Uh, I love that. Um, what do you think the biggest mistakes people make, um, when hiring a creative agency?

Wesley St. Amand (23:12):

I think the biggest mistakes they make is, um, oh, that's a tough question. I mean every brand is a little bit different, but a big mistake I see is like too much pressure on the creative agency. Um, from like the, there, there are people are a creative agent agency for a reason. And the reason is that they can come up with concepts that you maybe can't think of. Um, and so I think like the biggest thing is, you know, if you're a brand looking to hire a creative agency, let them go to work. As long as they understand the performance side, I think like that's obviously super important and they have a history to back up the performance side. I mean, there's a difference between like a creative agency that just does, like it's only brand and like the video is like executed on TV and it's not tracked and you don't, it doesn't really do much. But if it's like a brand video that actually like drives sales and performance and they have a past history of like success and they got a formula, like, let, 'em go to work.

Rabah Rahil (24:17):

I love that. Wait, I, uh, when I was running my agency, whenever I had kind of pushback from things, I was like, okay, cool. If that's how you wanna do it, it's your money. I'll spend it. But then why are you paying me?

Wesley St. Amand (24:28):

<laugh> yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rabah Rahil (24:30):

I'm the expert. Like I know what I'm doing here. It's like, it's fine. But at the same time, like then what do you want me doing here? I'm like, that's kind of what the money's for. Um, I love that, man. I think it's it's, it can be a challenge sometimes. But, um, what I found too is that once you, once you find kind of the question or the anxiety that is really driving that, cause a lot of times it's not in the it's passive aggressive, but not in like the, the explicit sense it's passive aggressive and they don't wanna say what the anxiety is, but once you unveil that anxiety and then you can directly go at it where it's like, dude, we're not gonna destroy your brand. Or people are not gonna stop buying because of this ad or something. Then you can be like, and I I've found that can kind of unlock a lot more, um, leeway if you will, in terms of the creative process,

Wesley St. Amand (25:16):

A hundred percent dude. And like, I think it's like one of those things that I constantly think about, like even from building like our brand dually and, and disrupt it's like people care a lot less about you than you think they care. Whether it's whether it's your brand, you as a person, your TikTok, like whatever your tweets on, on Twitter, like no one actually gives a shit as about you as much as you think they do. And like we're also like entrepreneurs for the most part are all like, you know, very obviously giving and stuff like that's ego, there's, there's ego and bravado there. And it's like, at the end of the day, it's like, even if you do have a miss on something, it's like, it's not as big as like what you think it is because like you're not that important.

Rabah Rahil (26:01):

Yep. Yeah. I love that, man. That's definitely something that'll help. Um, and when you have that alleviates that pressure, right. Where I have a little, little stoic saying it's not forever, it's not personal and it's not important. And so whenever something stresses me out, I just, just repeat that back to myself because it's, it's not man at the end of the day one it's job. And two, like this life for me is about building deep connections with humans. I care about like, you know, I missed on a creative, dang it. You know what I mean? Thankful that I can make these creatives and I don't have, I'm not getting shelled or Naval bombardment in Ukraine or something. I mean, there's just,

Wesley St. Amand (26:35):

Yeah, dude,

Rabah Rahil (26:35):

A lot of ways to drive gratitude, you know, where it's like, yeah, I get there's uh, also really, uh, what Ernie, uh, I forget what his name is, Ernie something, but the T and T guy on for basketball. Yeah. That was a really cool, he, when he, these aren't like half to moments, they're get to moments. Like I get to do this. I don't have to do it. And I think when your life switches from half to get mm-hmm <affirmative>, you should be, you know, realize how special that is and you can drive gratitude and gratitude for me is one of the, the most grounding emotions where it's like, okay, cool. And then once you're grounded, for some reason, it just unlocks everything where it's like, ah, I can actually play. It's like almost being tensed up right. When you're playing. And then finally it's like, dude, you don't need to score every, every time you touch a puck west, it doesn't have to go in the back of that. Just relax, find flow. And then you, yeah. Yeah. And then that, that can really like pressure can eat you up. And it there's a certain aspect of pressure that is, you know, in the right amount. It's great. Right? Like kind of like making a diamond or something like it's perfect, but if too much it crushes you and too little, you don't have the, the, you know, the environment to create that diamond. So there there's definitely balance there, but, um, it's very easy to skew, um, over, I think in a lot of ways.

Wesley St. Amand (27:47):

Yeah. A hundred percent dude. I completely agree.

Rabah Rahil (27:51):

What, so take me a little bit through kind of your guys' creative process. So I come to you, I say, Hey man, I got this new awesome brand. How, how does it work?

Wesley St. Amand (28:00):

Yeah. So first we kind of find like what your budgets are for a campaign.

Rabah Rahil (28:04):


Wesley St. Amand (28:06):

Um, because with the production budgets heavily indicate what you can do and what you can't do. Yep. Um, so once we kind of know your budgets, so say it's like, you know, $35,000, just as a, as a random number that we, we, we then work backwards off of an idea. So like, here's, here's a bunch of concepts. Um, which concepts do you like? Not like then, um, once we are like, okay, we, we love this concept. We go, um, to working on a script, we create a script. Um, we make it super funny, engaging. It's got like all the right sales. It's got the perfect blend of humor. That's not distracting, but also, um, entertaining enough where it's like, you're laughing, you're giggling. And then I call it like, we want people to have like good, good Juju with the brand. So it's like, they watch it.

Wesley St. Amand (28:57):

And they're like, you know, entertain because I think marketing is gonna, it really it's already changing quickly, but I think it's really gonna change a lot from a performance side. Like I think brand is gonna just matter a lot more. Yes. Um, so we create the script, we send it back to the client, make sure there's any tweaks that they like. Don't like, then we go to casting. So we, um, source and I'm actually gonna do a long Twitter thread on this of like how we do it. Um, but we go into casting and we use casting directors. So say we're casting a 40 year old female. Uh, we send off the script and then we get a ton of different video back. And then basically like you're casting for a movie. And then we pick, we pick the right actress. Um, then we go into set design, what do we want the set to look like?

Wesley St. Amand (29:48):

Where's the location? Is it in studio? Is it, does it need to be a different studio? That's much bigger. Is it a house? Like, where is it? What's the vibe? What's it look like? Um, and then we basically go into production, obviously there's more intricate steps, smaller steps between that, but on a, on a, you know, bigger view, we go into production and then we execute the production, get everybody we on, we need on set for that specific production. Whether like we need stunt guys, stunt team. Um, then we go into post, um, that's, you know, anywhere from like one to two weeks is probably like we ex we move fast and that's like, okay. I think been our biggest asset is like, we, we move quickly. Yep. Um, and then we deliver it and then basically any tweaks we tweak, but for the most part, like we're, we've been very fortunate that like our, our current clients, um, for the prices they pay, they really let us like go to work and do our job and trust us. Um, and we don't have like many people in the pod. Like our, our client communications for most clients is very minimal. Like after, after we onboard and stuff like that, it's like, then we just go and let us create.

Rabah Rahil (31:04):

I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. How fun man? That is, uh, that is, it's literally like a mini movie. It's so cool. Yeah. Now do you get to, do you like premiere it to the client? Or like how, what does the final deliverable look like when you like, or like, how do you, you know, deliver the final deliverable? That's a terrible sentence.

Wesley St. Amand (31:21):

No, I, I get, I get what you're saying. Yeah. So it's been, um, basically we make like one, it's basically the one, um, hero and we have like, on these productions, they're pricey. But what we do is we have like six, like, so for the, the next production we're doing with puffy, we do like a six spot, six second spot, a 32nd spot, a minute, 30, a two minute. So that's like four videos right there. Then we do like the 16 by nines, the one by ones, four by fives. And then we have like multiple different hooks that, that we switch in and out because it's like, it's all about performance. And like, we don't want to give just one piece of content and then our videos can be sequenced so we can get like so many, like some of our productions we're getting, you know, 30 to 35 different cuts, um, off, off of one production, if not more, um, depending on, you know, what we do, like switching out in and offers in and out offers. So yeah, to answer your question, it's, uh, we, we make the hero video, um, give it BA and that's the video we work around and then if they want any like major tweaks, so we're not going back and forth on editing too much. We, we tweak kind of, as we, as we need.

Rabah Rahil (32:36):

I love that. Yeah. Do you just send over all the final stuff or do you like premiere it together?

Wesley St. Amand (32:44):

Um, we typically, like, it's different with each client on like how we want the communication. So like, um, you know, often we are in communication with like the heads of media buying, um, on, you know, anything that's like, not internal. So like, um, we'll, we'll get in touch with their head, a media buying. We'll be like, you know, what do you think about this tweak here and there? And then like, what if we like chop three seconds off the start of this video? What if we shave down here, love it. What if we lost this part? And then that, that communication process is pretty quick. Like we pretty much execute if same day, if not the day after, and then kind of pass it back.

Rabah Rahil (33:25):

I love that. What are some of your favorite ads you guys have created?

Wesley St. Amand (33:30):

Mm, honestly, man, I've made like a vow to our, our team and ourselves not to

Rabah Rahil (33:36):


Wesley St. Amand (33:36):

No, no, not to have, not, not, not to have any, but like that, like every single production that we have to get better. And like, we have to do more like more things that are just like, like we want our ads to constantly like, how can we like, make them look more expensive, but stay scrappy for the client and like get them better and better. So like, literally, I, I swear, I say like for the most part, every production I'm like, this is my favorite one. Um, but like the one we just did the newscaster one for persona. That's great. I think, uh, thank you. Um, I think that one was like super funny and entertaining, um, and super snappy. And we have like, uh, a ton of different cuts of that one. So yeah.

Rabah Rahil (34:19):

Um, the tea was funny. The tea bags were brilliant.

Wesley St. Amand (34:23):

Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Rabah Rahil (34:24):

That was one of my favorites.

Wesley St. Amand (34:25):

Yeah, that one was, uh, that one was interesting. Thank you. <laugh>

Rabah Rahil (34:32):

All right, man. You know, I love you, but rapid fires coming up. Are you ready for this?

Wesley St. Amand (34:35):

I don't know. Let's see if I can handle it.

Rabah Rahil (34:37):

Oh, let's strap on the arm. I was try not to, to hit hip check you too hard. No, no, no board check or what is it? Cross checks, but yeah,

Wesley St. Amand (34:44):


Rabah Rahil (34:44):

Cross checks. Traffic. Fire. Yeah. You gotta do what you gotta do. All right, Canada, overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (34:52):

Uh, underrated.

Rabah Rahil (34:53):

Oh, I like it. TikTok overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (34:57):

Highly underrated.

Rabah Rahil (34:59):

Ooh. I love it. Expensive creative, overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (35:06):

Overrated. If they don't understand the performance side.

Rabah Rahil (35:10):

Ooh, that is an interesting answer. I love it. I love it. Traveling overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (35:16):

Underrated. Big time.

Rabah Rahil (35:19):

Three point lighting, overrated, underrated.

Wesley St. Amand (35:23):

Um, underrated lighting is underrated.

Rabah Rahil (35:25):


Wesley St. Amand (35:26):

Lighting is sorry. Lighting. It's funny you say that because like on our productions, like we have like lighting crews now and it's like, it, it makes the whole production look so much better. I love and performance in, in, within the campaigns. It helps with the performance. I, I fully think so. I,

Rabah Rahil (35:46):

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. I mean, obviously, um, when I was running my agency, we weren't doing to the level you guys were, but um, when you'd get U GC back, the U GC would be banging, but they'd be in this dark dungeon. And you're like, oh my God. Like the, the script's on the audio's perfect. But the like, people just won't watch it. Yeah. It's just, just, just atrocious. It's a, it's a challenge. Yeah. Um, hockey, overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (36:11):


Rabah Rahil (36:13):

Wayne Gretsky, overrated, underrated.

Wesley St. Amand (36:16):

He's he's underrated. He's where he, how we're we're from the same city too. So I gotta, I gotta no way. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (36:24):

I was reading some crazy stat that if you took out, I, I can't, I think like half of his career or something like that, he would still be in the top 20 of all of his stats. He was just so far beyond everybody. It's

Wesley St. Amand (36:36):

Insane, dude.

Rabah Rahil (36:37):

It's it's insane, right?

Wesley St. Amand (36:38):

Same city as Zach's from too.

Rabah Rahil (36:41):

No. Oh my gosh. Look at that. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Uh, surfing, overrated, underrated,

Wesley St. Amand (36:47):

Underrated, best. Oh, best. Uh, one of my favorite things in, in the world to do,

Rabah Rahil (36:54):

Do you ever get sketched? Because I haven't done it, but there's this little kind of like sketchy in me where like I have to do all this cardio, you know, 10 to 15 minute cardio just to get out to the breaks and then you like have to wait for your set, et cetera, et cetera. Cetera. And then, I don't know. I just had this, like I get, cuz I push myself really hard. I used to run. Yeah. And I just get real sketched out being, um, you know, tired in water. I don't know. It just kind of does that ever get to you or you just kind of get over it

Wesley St. Amand (37:26):

To answer that question. Surfing is one of the sketchiest sports ever. Um, if you're like in gnarly places that are like pushing the limits, um, I've got injured like a bunch of times surfing and like, I, I used to live in Bali and uh, Australia and stuff like that. And uh, I was trying to keep up with like locals and stuff like that and just getting absolutely not path chucked. Um, so yeah, but it's when you do get away best feeling in the world,

Rabah Rahil (37:57):

I love that. Yeah. You get getting like washing machine does not fun where you just like, you, you get up and then you get hit with another set and you're just chugging water or getting slammed. Like water is so powerful man. People, people sleep on it. It is so, and some of those waves, you know what I mean? That's proper weight hitting you. Oh yeah. It's not just, uh,

Wesley St. Amand (38:16):

Free, free nasal blends.

Rabah Rahil (38:18):

<laugh> what's the, uh, the free Netty pot baby. There we go.

Wesley St. Amand (38:24):

<laugh> oh, that's good.

Rabah Rahil (38:26):

Uh, what's your favorite hockey team?

Wesley St. Amand (38:29):

Um, honestly, man, I never even watch hockey much anymore, but I would have to say, yeah, I would have to represent the Leafs just because, uh, yeah, I'd have to bandwagon my local team.

Rabah Rahil (38:44):

Those are sweet, sweet jerseys though. To be fair.

Wesley St. Amand (38:46):

They are, they're sick. They're sick. Yeah. Those

Rabah Rahil (38:48):

Are sick jerseys. Yeah. Um, what's your favorite thing to do in Canada?

Wesley St. Amand (38:53):

Um, my favorite thing to do is, uh, I, I recently moved into a little ski town called blue mountain. Um, okay. So I live like 10 seconds from the mountain. I can like pretty much walk to the hill. Um, so I get out snowboarding, um, after work sometimes and just, you know, go, uh, get a couple apps in. So I've been enjoying that a lot lately and then, uh, playing shinny hockey here.

Rabah Rahil (39:22):

Oh, that's amazing. When it thaws out, do you do any, uh, downhill mountain biking?

Wesley St. Amand (39:28):

I've never gotten into it, but it's funny you say that because I was like this summer. I'd love to get into that a little bit more. Um, yeah. Yeah, because it's a big downhill mountain bike SWAT here. What about you?

Rabah Rahil (39:39):

Yeah, that's cool, man. I love it. I, I tr like you, I have kind of that obsess of personality and uh, I got into it once and then almost broke my clavicle. And then I realized like all these killers that are incredible at it. Get wrecked all the time. And I was like, eh, maybe, maybe this isn't

Wesley St. Amand (39:57):

For me. <laugh> yeah, maybe this isn't it.

Rabah Rahil (39:59):

Yeah. Uh, what's your favorite meal and why?

Wesley St. Amand (40:03):

Um, my favorite meal is probably, um, steak and you know, like a good thing of vegetables. Um, I've been trying this carnivore diet lately, which is like a lot of steak. Oh yeah. Steak and fruit. Um, yeah, seeing how I feel on that, but like, yeah. I love like an ice grass fed, uh, steak.

Rabah Rahil (40:26):

What kind of cut? What's your favorite cut?

Wesley St. Amand (40:29):

Um, I'm honestly not too fussy on, uh, on the cut I've been having, uh, like iron steak lately.

Rabah Rahil (40:36):


Wesley St. Amand (40:38):

Okay. Um, I, I'm not sure if you've had that, but they're called iron iron steaks here. I, I don't know where the cut is, but they're delicious.

Rabah Rahil (40:45):

I love it. I, I, I'm a, I'm a bougie guy. I like to gimme the filet. Give

Wesley St. Amand (40:50):

Me the filet. I love it.

Rabah Rahil (40:51):

Yeah. At Toma Hawk, I can get down with, if I'm feeling, if I'm feeling kind of just wanting to show off at the restaurant, but

Wesley St. Amand (40:57):

<laugh> yeah.

Rabah Rahil (40:58):

For the most part, I gimme the filet, gimme the good stuff and I'm in and out, baby. Yeah. Uh, what's the favorite way to spend your time?

Wesley St. Amand (41:06):


Wesley St. Amand (41:08):

I am pretty introverted by nature. I love just, uh, honestly, man, I love spending time by myself and, uh, I watch a lot of YouTube and just kind of hang out, um, sit in kind of the quiet, which is like, I feel like, you know, a lot of, a lot of interactions, I kind of drained my energy, so yep. Getting caught up on energy and being able to, you know, sit and reflect and kind of hang out and that's, uh, a way I love to spend my time or I go to the range and, and oops dropped it here. I hit some golf balls on the range. Um, so that's, that's a big one for me too.

Rabah Rahil (41:53):

Oh, I love it. Is golf big in Canada.

Wesley St. Amand (41:55):

It is man. Yeah. It's pretty big. Like a lot of my friends golf here and we all kind of go out and, uh, in the summer have some beers and get around in and hang out.

Rabah Rahil (42:05):

Love it. Okay. A couple more. And then we'll finish it off. Uh, your favorite follow on Twitter.

Wesley St. Amand (42:11):

Um, favorite person I follow on Twitter.

Rabah Rahil (42:15):

Yep. Or, yeah, just your favorite follow on Twitter. Yeah.

Wesley St. Amand (42:17):

Yeah. Um, honestly probably probably Shaq. Um, yeah, you know, I've always like really, uh, respected Shaq and um, you know, him being an older guy, I look up to how he is building things and what he's doing. Um, so, so yeah, always wa love watching what he's up to.

Rabah Rahil (42:40):

Yeah. I've been really, uh, privileged to kind of become close with him over the last kind of few months. And he's a, he's really is a gem of a human man. He is, he is, uh, really great role model and uh, just awesome dude. And he is a crusher. Yeah.

Wesley St. Amand (42:53):

Which is great. And yeah, exactly. A hundred percent.

Rabah Rahil (42:57):

Um, what's one of your like favorite creators or movie makers or filmmakers or anything like that, who you got there?

Wesley St. Amand (43:03):

Um, I think one of the most underrated guys ever is, uh, Mike Myers, um, oh,

Rabah Rahil (43:10):

For sure. And Canadian.

Wesley St. Amand (43:11):

Yeah. And Canadian he's uh, man, I think like if he, if, if Mike Mike Myers was born again and was able to be in the D TOC world and come up with, you know, mold the world of his creative mind with like performance marketing, um, there would be some insane stuff made cuz his, his mind is wild

Rabah Rahil (43:34):

Dude. So I married in ax murders, like one of my favorite movies when he has all those cameos and he is the old dad making fun of the fat kid look at his heed. Yeah. He's he's incredible, dude. He, Austin Powers. He does a bunch of dude,

Wesley St. Amand (43:47):

Dude, the Austin Powers are

Rabah Rahil (43:48):

He's incredible

Wesley St. Amand (43:49):

Are the best things incredible in the world. Like it's and like the fact that

Rabah Rahil (43:53):

He's baby back, baby back baby back.

Wesley St. Amand (43:55):

Yeah. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (43:56):

He's so good.

Wesley St. Amand (43:57):

He scripted, he casted, like he acted, he literally did everything in those and uh, that's just incredible.

Rabah Rahil (44:06):

I, I love it. I love it. Um, okay. Last question. You ready? Yep. This is, this is the hard one. All right. If you could have dinner with three people dead or alive, fictional or non-fictional who would they be? So you have a four person table you're sitting at the head of it. You get to invite three people to fill those seats who fills those seats.

Wesley St. Amand (44:23):

Ooh. Um, Seth golden.

Rabah Rahil (44:27):

Ooh, great choice.

Wesley St. Amand (44:28):

Yeah. I think also big fan. I think, um, the way he thinks about marketing, um, is very much different from how people currently in our space think of things. And I think people are way too obsessed with performance and they don't think about long term, um, things. Um, so Seth golden would be one. Um, I would love to sit down with, um, I feel like everybody says Elon Musk. Um,

Rabah Rahil (45:00):

Not many people only once out of the whole cuz we haven't changed our hitter question. Only one PE person have said that.

Wesley St. Amand (45:06):

Yeah. I think I would sit down with Elon Musk and then uh, Richard Branson.

Rabah Rahil (45:11):

Ooh, that's a table. That's a table right there. A couple Titans in, in the top tier marketer. I love

Wesley St. Amand (45:16):

It. Yeah. I think it would be a good, uh, there a, a few very different personalities too, which would, which would make it fun.

Rabah Rahil (45:23):

It's a great point. That's a

Wesley St. Amand (45:25):

Get the whiskey going with those boys. It would be, uh, it would be wild. That's

Rabah Rahil (45:29):

A good time. <laugh> that's a good time. That's a lot of money in that room too. Yeah. Just across Branson and Musk.

Wesley St. Amand (45:34):

Geez. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (45:36):

And, uh, dude, you made it rapid fire. I should have known the, the Canadian strength you powered through and you didn't even need to take a shot of maple syrup. I mean, come

Wesley St. Amand (45:45):

On. No syrup,

Rabah Rahil (45:46):

This kid he's he's all day. Uh, alright. We tell us how people can follow you. How can they get more involved with disrupt? Uh, let the people know.

Wesley St. Amand (45:54):

Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, so it's WESA w E S S T a a 21 on Twitter. I think there's two A's. Um, my personal Instagram is, uh WESA so it's just w E S S T AA. And then, uh, disrupt media marketing. Uh, no I and disrupt

Rabah Rahil (46:17):

Beautiful. You made it through my man. Congrats. All right, folks, that's it. 25 in the books. If you wanna get more involved with triple well, you can go to try triple well.com. We are also on the bird app at triple well. Um, and then we have an incredible newsletter called well, mail goes out every Tuesday, Thursday, if you want that to land in your inbox, just go to our Twitter profile. Subscribe right there. Wes. It's so good, man. I can't, I can't wait to see you in person again. Come out to Austin sometime. We'll put you up. We'll have some fun. We'll do it big. We gotta HQ out here. Now it'll be a good time. I

Wesley St. Amand (46:48):

Know, man. I miss you. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. Really grateful. Um, you guys are able to have me on, so look forward to chatting you soon, dude.

One Tab
To Replace Them All

Supercharge your growth with a purpose-built ecomOS for brands and agencies.

Get Started
Start Making More Money
Start Making More Money
Start Making More Money
Start Making More Money
Get a Tour
Before ...
Ads Manager
Triple Whale