The TRUTH About Being an Entrepreneur W/ Rob Fraser

December 1, 2022


Hosted By

Rabah Rahil
CMO at Triple Whale


Rob Fraser
Founder @outwaysocks

Episode Description

In this episode of ROAS we go over how Rob Fraser went from ELITE mountain biking athlete to an ELITE Entrepreneur and his story with OutWay #ROAS

Notes & Links

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Follow the people featured in this episode here:

- Rabah's Twitter: https://twitter.com/rabahrahil
- Rob's Twitter: https://twitter.com/robbfraser


Rob Fraser  (00:00:00):

So like when in the early days we wanted to grow, I didn't invest in digital marketing right back. Cause I didn't, I was bootstrapped. We didn't have a lot of money. I said, how do I get socks on feet? So I went around and partnered with all the local sports events. I was like, Hey, when someone signs up for this marathon and we give them a pair of socks. And uh, and so we got the socks on thousands of people on the back of the packaging. We would have a discount code, could email that out to them after, as well to kind of re retarget them and incentivize them to come purchase. Um, and so that was kind of what we did for two years to grow the business to over a million dollars just by like boots on ground selling socks and events, uh, partnering with like red bull and people to kind of give participants, uh, socks. And if you gimme a million bucks, like let's just put a million dollars for the socks out there. And I bet the conversion rate per high.

Rabah Rahil (00:00:54):

Here we are folks, this man has broken an addiction of mine. He is the sock savant. Rob, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Rob Fraser  (00:01:04):

Hey, it's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:06):

Yeah, absolutely. I am in Austin, Texas as always. Where does this podcast find you today?

Rob Fraser  (00:01:12):

We're in beautiful Victoria, BC, Canada. So we're, we're on an island, not so little island. It's it's, you know, 800 kilometers. I don't know what that is in miles. Uh, a lot of miles <laugh> and uh, it's just off the coast of Vancouver. So we're on the west coast. We're basically like, like right beside Seattle as well for any, you know, American listeners. So, uh, Pacific Northwest beautiful best place in Canada. Uh, love it here.

Rabah Rahil (00:01:36):

Yeah, it is definitely, uh, outside the cold climate. It's one of the most beautiful, the Pacific Northwest and that whole kind of forested region is, uh, super spectacular up there. You got all the little sounds and all the, the cool little bays and everything like that. It's a really, really pretty area. How long have you been in Canada? Okay.

Rob Fraser  (00:01:53):

Uh, born and raised in Canada. Uh, I was, uh, originally from like greater Toronto area though. Okay. My whole life, uh, born and raised in Pickering, Ontario, 30 minutes east. Um, and so, yeah, like I moved out here about seven or eight years ago just for the lifestyle and I used to race mountain bikes, professionally and where the mountains are out here. A lot of the races and just asked, well, actually I didn't really know there was anywhere in Canada that didn't snow. Uh, I almost like feel like, uh, that's a stereotype of Canada, like was actually living it, you know, so we're not under snow all the time, but it, it amazed me that Victoria didn't snow at all. I was like blown away. And so when I moved out here, I was like, yep, this is where I wanna be. And maybe 10 years from now, I wanna move. Someone stays even warmer. Maybe you'll meet you down in, uh, in Texas.

Rabah Rahil (00:02:37):

In Texas.

Rob Fraser  (00:02:39):

Yeah. Yeah,

Rabah Rahil (00:02:40):

Yeah. I guess that's a lot more amenable. Can you do downhill mountain biking with, you can do crazy snow tires, but it it's pretty, the skiing and snowboarding and stuff would take over, right?

Rob Fraser  (00:02:50):

Yeah. It would be kind of useless for training. It would, it's be quite irrelevant. So it was, I would always spend my, my winters traveling to places to ride. So I spent spent some time in New Zealand and Spain and would kind of like do little training camps every winter. And that at a point it became unsustainable in terms of just finances and I wanted a home base. And so being in Victoria could ride all year round. And this is actually where a lot of people, even from outside of Canada come to train in the winter as well. We have some of the best running

Rabah Rahil (00:03:17):

Really. That's interesting. How fast do you get up to in when you're doing downhill?

Rob Fraser  (00:03:24):

Uh, top speeds can be anywhere. Like, again, I'm gonna speak in kilometers per hour. Um, yeah. You know, like 60, 70 kilometers per hour faster, but then you're averaging probably 30, 40 K, but you're in the trees too. So like it's fast when you're in the trees and they don't move when you hit them. And so, uh, yeah, it's like for people that aren't this where it's like the downhill ski equivalent on a bike time trial through the trees jumps your, the course between three and five minutes and you're just pinned

Rabah Rahil (00:03:56):

How'd you get into that?

Rob Fraser  (00:03:59):

Um, yeah, like just kind of got, I always gravitated towards like non-team sports and just fell in love with cycling. There was a TV show called drop in that sort of stole my attention and just made me obsessed with cycling and then just slowly, but surely got better at it and got named to the national team. It just kind of snowballed. I found myself just kind of immersed and it was doing well. And, um, I just really enjoyed all the aspects of it. And it was like in hindsight, quite an entrepreneurial sport. Like I had to not being a team sport. I had to manage all my own kind of like self-promotion negotiating sponsorship, contracts, booking worldwide, like logistics, managing my finances. I think I was always an entrepreneur, but I didn't know what entrepreneurship was. I didn't come from family of entrepreneurs. So I came from like a traditional, like good old Canadian, like hockey family and like sports and go to university.

Rob Fraser  (00:04:45):

And so that's all I knew, but I was very entrepreneurial in hindsight. So like I, I applied all those tendencies to like an individual sport. And I think, you know, I was never like the fastest cyclist, but I was always like the most prepared or the most professional in some areas. And I think like, it just taught me like 10 years of kind of business experience that was non-traditional and it's kind of helped me as a transition into, uh, you know, actual entrepreneurship. So, uh, yeah, just really enjoyed, I think, more than anything, I enjoyed like the preparation, the training, and kind of like building everything that was involved with being an athlete and racing was also really fun and exciting. And I get to do all those same things in business, which is awesome.

Rabah Rahil (00:05:24):

That is awesome. Is that pretty capital intensive? Like the bikes and the gear? Cause you can get pretty gear heady, right?

Rob Fraser  (00:05:31):

Yeah. Especially in downhill mountain biking, like the bikes themselves, if you don't have a sponsorship or like above like 10 grand a piece more, um, and then you're traveling.

Rabah Rahil (00:05:39):

Holy smokes.

Rob Fraser  (00:05:41):

Yeah. Youre generally, um, taking flights everywhere. Um, staying like a lot of the races were in Europe, so it's very expensive. Um, so yeah, it's not deep. Like a season would like without sponsors would cost you probably 40, 50, 60 K to do a season.

Rabah Rahil (00:05:57):

Whoa. How do you move your bike?

Rob Fraser  (00:06:00):

Uh, you box it up and put it on the plane. Yeah.

Rabah Rahil (00:06:03):

Whoa that's

Rob Fraser  (00:06:04):

So I've had so many times, so many times where they've lost the bike and like I was at world champs once in Switzerland and uh, and they lost my bike. I had to like literally rent one for a few days and

Rabah Rahil (00:06:16):


Rob Fraser  (00:06:17):

Just like, that's the kind of things like that. I've like those lessons have translated to business. Like how do you deal with those things? You know? And like, how am I like, like calling the airlines to figure out where my bike is. And you know, at the last minute on like one of the most important races of the year, like tracking down how to rent a bike and get used to this, it's just like, there are so many lessons that my time in sport taught me that are like so relevant today. And there's a lot of good stories obviously as well. And I think the ultimate thing I learned was that like everything in life is earned and not owed. So like in, sport's a beautiful teacher for that because you can't roll up to sport and just win or accomplish things you have to put in the work. And I think in a world day where a lot of things are handed to people like sport is still one of the, the true areas in life where you're just not handed it like in the short of participation medals. And I'm not a fan of that, but like real sport, there's a winner there's rules. There's you gotta put the work in. And so like, I, I love that as like a foundation and it's sort of like a become mental way of approaching life is like sports, this awesome teacher for that.

Rabah Rahil (00:07:19):

Did you, how'd you do when you had the sketchy rental?

Rob Fraser  (00:07:24):

Uh, it was tough to get used to a new bike and it was arguably like one of the more technical tracks like ever, oh, this track was so deep and, and gnarly that people were airlifted to the hospital from the track walk day, the day you would walk down and just to scope it out. And it was so steep that if you made a misstep, you, people were actually like literally taken to hospital and then you have to ride your bike down. And so like, uh, it's art, honestly, though, like when you're not like, when you're pretty good at biking, it's easier to walk down the really hard or ride down the really hard stuff than walk it. So, yeah. Um, so like, you know, these tracks aren't built to walk, but that's how steep it was that if you mistepped like you were going down 30, 40 feet.

Rabah Rahil (00:08:03):

Oh, wow. Did you ever have any pretty bad, gnarly wrecks?

Rob Fraser  (00:08:07):

Oh, all the time. Yeah. Like probably like one or two fairly major injuries a year, like blown out shoulder. You can still like, see the bump here, like concussions, broken wrists, legs, ribs, nothing like crazy, crazy, like no broken back neck. And it's a dangerous sport though. Like two of my good friends have passed away from it. Wow. Which is kinda gnarly. Um, one, not both during like the fun times, like the training and whatever, like not actually competing. And generally that's where the accidents do happen is like when you're just kind of messing around. But, um, and then a lot of other friends that have like broken backs and stuff like that. So, uh, I've got a two year old son now and he's actually getting pretty stoked on biking. So I kind of, I'm starting to feel the, uh, the pain of what my parents must have been in of like, oh, maybe you should just like do baseball or something.

Rob Fraser  (00:08:58):

<laugh>. Yeah. But, uh, so it's dangerous for sure. And like, like I said, trees don't move. And, uh, so a lot of injuries from just like hitting trees, like that was my shoulder. Um, so, but again, like learned lessons from that, like a lot learned a lot about the human body and learned a lot about just dealing with pain and hardship and, and setbacks, cuz like, again, those were just unavoidable consequences of sport and just like business there's unavoidable, things that happen and your ability to persevere and overcome them is ultimately like what leads to success. So, um, again like everything I learned in sport just like translated to what I do now. And I'm just thankful for kind of all those, those lessons and, and challenges that I did have.

Rabah Rahil (00:09:42):

That's beautiful, man. I, I actually for a time, so I used to run competitively, which is not dangerous at all. Um, and then I, I kind of lost a, uh, uh, when you compete, there's a certain kind of like itch that gets scratched. And so I was looking kind of for my adrenaline junkie and I DIPP my toes into, uh, downhill mountain biking. And, uh, we were on like amateur course, you know, there's some BEMs and some fun stuff. And I, I basically taking my dad's huffy out. My buddy had like this just jet up bike. And I remember just hitting a root, like proper S my tire. I end up shouldering. I was like, Nope, this is like, I have the wrong personality for this cuz I would be. Uh, and to your point too, like I knew killers that were getting hurt where it's like, I'm nowhere near their levels and they're getting got, I have no chance. And so, uh, yeah, I can definitely relate to the adrenaline seeking, but it was not, I, I was smart enough to not, not take debate, but it, it looks really cool. It is. There's, uh, definitely in, in a different life for sure. But, uh, that's incredible. So how did you transition then into entrepreneurship from sport? Like when did, because you had, you were pretty successful, right? What five times on the national team or something like that? Like you, you were pretty elite.

Rob Fraser  (00:10:58):

Yeah, that's right. I was five times in the national team and you know, there's just, unfortunately like downtown mountain biking is not an Olympic sport and a lot of funding for sport comes from, um, from government bodies and like, and there's a lot more money into sports from just sponsorship contracts that are Olympic. Um, that said like cycling and downhill discipline, cycling's pretty underfunded. And I just wasn't reaching the level in the sport that I needed to make it to like a very sustainable yeah. Cause like sustainable career, cuz I told you, like you don't only have to cover the $40,000 and just travel and bike expenses and stuff. Like you also then need to make an income on top of that. And then you're not eligible. You're not really have time for actual work. Like you're training a lot and stuff. So the athlete life is for most people is very, very tough and it's, it's not very economically rewarding.

Rob Fraser  (00:11:47):

Um, so I was kind of look into the future in my early twenties after like kind of 10 years in the sport was just like, this is, you know, feels like a right time to kind of walk away while I'm still like competitive and you know, it's, it's my choice. And even though I was, you know, I, who knows what could happen. Like I was still the, the year I retired, I was still ranked second in the country. I finished that season with the number two spot in Canada. Um, and so like I was still, I still could have maybe made to that level. I was just like, even if I do make it to that level, I've got a couple more years left or a few more years and you know, like, and just who knows. And then when I start thinking about like a family in the future and stuff, so made a decision to like just stop racing and, and honestly I stopped like dreaming about it.

Rob Fraser  (00:12:30):

So like it kind of like was just the right time. It just like sort of happened, although it was hard and I kind of hit this like two year period of just like, what do I do next? So I thought like the logical thing was, well, go get an education in sport. So I went to sport management in, in college, um, and start working with athletes that are like on the up and up. So like that made sense, obviously in my mind. And so I did that, I got into school for sport management. I got a job at the Canadian sport Institute in my off time, working in the talent development, uh, area where we're helping future Olympians and all that stuff. And even though I was like doing what made sense and like what I thought would be fulfilling, I just felt dead inside.

Rob Fraser  (00:13:10):

I was like that, that 10 year journey of like chasing this huge goal that like I was, you know, like in charge of and in control of, and it was just gone and then like real life or like a real job, like just wasn't cutting it. Like, yeah, I was just entrepreneurial. I just didn't really know it. Um, and so going into my second year of school, I was kinda laying it bad. I was like, you know what? Like, I don't know what I want to do. I think starting a business sounds like a cool idea. Cause like, you know, I, I literally said to myself, like the worst thing that's gonna happen is I'm gonna learn a lot of cool things. Like I still have three more years of school. So like I have no real responsibility. I can do this in my spare time and Hey, if it works, works.

Rob Fraser  (00:13:49):

And then I kind of started thinking through, I was like, you know what? Like I can make business my new sport, you know, especially if I build a brand in the athletic space, I can still like talk to all my friends that are athletes like sponsor them. I can still talk to the same sponsors and like do business with them. Um, that's like the red bull fridge, like, so like I said, I'm like working on being like the first red bull sponsored entrepreneur, you know, like, I'm like, this is, uh, this is cool. This is the sport of business. I love this. And so I wanted to build a brand that was kind of like had been an athlete and a high performance athlete. I always thought of performance as like winning. And when I was no longer like a full-time athlete and I was now like an athletic person living in the real world, I like the brands that were like relevant to me as an athlete weren't as relevant anymore.

Rob Fraser  (00:14:33):

I was like, where's the kind of brand that speaks to the everyday athlete that has to work. A job, has to like maybe as kids and still has to find time to go on like a 5k runner, take care of their health. Like that's really hard. And so I wanted to build a brand that spoke to the everyday athlete and like gave them the tools to be, be like functional across a bunch of things they're gonna do throughout the day. And then also have like a product, our socks in this case that were expressive and fun in a way they could put a smile on their face and ultimately inspire them just to get up every day and pursue their personal best. Like that was the goal. Um, that's what always got me out of bed and got me excited. So I wanted to build a brand to just basically for myself, you know, that was like the day one. I was like, I'm just gonna build this for myself because like I'm in a dark place and I, I wanna work on something and I want a brand that talked to perseverance and, and hard work and ultimately just improving every day. Like that was the goal.

Rabah Rahil (00:15:25):

That's awesome, man. I'm all fired up. Um, so you did, uh, uh, you were on a TV show, right? You got to pitch, uh, at dragons then.

Rob Fraser  (00:15:36):

Yeah. So it's like the,

Rabah Rahil (00:15:37):

Tell me about that. It's like the shark tank,

Rob Fraser  (00:15:38):

It's like shark tank talent race,

Rabah Rahil (00:15:40):

Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little about

Rob Fraser  (00:15:41):

That. Yeah. So shark tanks, shark tanks, obviously like more well known even though dragons here in Canada and then, and Britain was, uh, kind of like the first one, you know, like, like the early seasons of dragons, like we had given O leery and that stuff. So, um, yeah, it was cool. We were like, I started the business, it was starting to get a bit traction was still in school. And then like this opportunity came to go pitch the producers, they do our road show all throughout Canada. And so I was like, got a text, like, Hey, they're doing this. Like you should roll up. I was like, okay, just kind of winged. It like rolled up was like, here's our business. You're doing got a call two weeks later. Hey, like you're, you're invited to fly to Toronto or come to Toronto and like film.

Rob Fraser  (00:16:16):

I was like, this is pretty cool. And that was kinda like the moment where like I asked myself, like, is this gonna be the thing to do? Like, you're gonna go pitch this on national television. This was like, it was kind of like mimic making sort of what happened to me in cycling. I started doing it and started to kind of get like do all right. And then like, I got an email, like, do you wanna be on the national team? And so like was like, you know, I was doing business. It was kind of going well. Like we passed like about a close to like over half a million dollars in sales and we got this opportunity. You want to come pitch on national TV? And I was like, I, this is the moment, you know, this is like where it starts to get real.

Rob Fraser  (00:16:51):

Um, and that's kind of like, so we went on and, and filmed and ended up getting a couple offers that they weren't great offers. So I turned them down and uh, ultimately we, we exited the show and that gave me a lot of clarity around like a, like a bunch of things. Like I'm gonna really take this business and like prove them wrong. Cause they were kind of giving me a hard time about our valuation. Um, and I was like, oh, I know this is gonna be like a, a billion dollar company in one day. Like just I'll show you. And then also my business partner at the time, him and I weren't, uh, seeing eye to eye on a lot of things. And uh, and that, that whole experience really kind of highlighted that there was a big difference between like the level of work we were putting in and preparation. And, uh, so in the back of that, the company went through like a lot of shifts where I bought up the co-founder and then we really, I just went all in, you know, I quit all my jobs, I dropped outta school and was just like, this is what I'm doing now. And, uh, and yeah, it was a good choice. <laugh> it worked out. And, uh, and what I always said is like, like I'm just trying to avoid getting a real job and so far so good.

Rabah Rahil (00:17:52):

Yeah. I've, I've heard that so many times with entrepreneurs where I I'm either unemployable or I just don't want a regular job like that thing. And I think you actually had a tweet where, uh, dropping out isn't, uh, like quitting it's going pro or is paraphrasing

Rob Fraser  (00:18:07):


Rabah Rahil (00:18:07):

Along those lines.

Rob Fraser  (00:18:09):

Yeah. Quoting Sean Purry from my first he's like, he's like, we need to change the, the rhetoric. Like when a young kid drops out of like college to go join a hot startup, that's not drop it out. It's called pro. It was like, yeah, that that's going pro like when an, like when a professional basketball player drops out of like NCAA to join NBA, it's like, that's going pro you know, like we need to start looking at that as, as, as what it is. And, um, equally like chip Wilson, founder Lule as a, like, entrepreneurs are just too incompetent to work for anyone else <laugh>, you know, it's just so it's just like, like I agree and disagree cause I think are fairly confident, but I think it, it, it speaks to the larger thing that like, we're not exactly the best employees.

Rabah Rahil (00:18:49):

Yeah. It's, it's hard to, uh, I think a lot of entrepreneurial spirit is hard to, um, put into kind of formulaic things where like they do really well. Like we actually ironically hire a bunch of entrepreneurs, like X people that have made their shot and kind of, sort of missed it. But at the same time, like we don't tell people like how to do it. We just tell them what we need to get done and just unleash them on it. And I think that's not really a lot of, uh, if you go to a job, a lot of times they tell you how to do the job versus just telling you what they need done. And that's, that is like nails on a chalkboard to the entrepreneurial spirit.

Rob Fraser  (00:19:26):

I think it's also like counter to what you actually want out an employee. It's like, like the purpose of hiring great people is to let them be great. And if you're gonna tell them what to do, you're gonna like bring them down to your, like, you know what I mean? Like I only hire people that are better than me. So what the hell am I gonna tell you

Rabah Rahil (00:19:43):

A hundred percent with you? When I ran my, I used to run an agency before I came to triple well, and when I had people basically telling me what to do, I was like, okay, that's fine. It's your money. I'll spend it how you want, but that's why you're paying me all this money, because I know more than you. Like, that's what the money's for. Like, why are you paying me all this money then? Like, there's just telling me, like, I'm not a keyboard monkey. Like I literally do this. This is why I'm gonna make you money. And so I I'm totally with you on that. I love that.

Rob Fraser  (00:20:09):


Rabah Rahil (00:20:10):

Um, let's wrap up the main segment with one more question. Um, what's the nicest thing someone's done for you?

Rob Fraser  (00:20:18):

Well, that's, I've ever, I dunno if I've ever asked them before. Um, oh man. I mean, like, if you think about any entrepreneur's journey over five years, there's been people that I've just like helped me out so much. I would say like the thing that comes to mind the most and like, there's been so many things. So like, I'm sure someone's gonna be like, Hey, I did this nice thing for you. Why did you say it? So <laugh>, uh, I would say like the biggest moment early on was when I had to buy out my co-founder. Yep. Um, and I needed to come up with 150,000 thousand dollars and I was just like in personal debt at the time. So I'd say like, one of the nicest things happened is my father-in-law and he wasn't my father-in-law at the time lent me the money to do it. Um, so I would say that was, yeah, it was a good amount of money and

Rabah Rahil (00:21:01):


Rob Fraser  (00:21:02):

Yeah, he, he does well, but that wasn't like that wasn't an amount anyone could afford to lose per se. You know, like Mo most people would, would hurt the idea of losing a 50 K. Um, so I'd say it was nice for mul multiple reasons. A, the terms are favorable and, and B believed in me. So like, I often think like the thing that means that most to me, from anyone interact with is when they just like, believe in what I'm doing, you know? Like, I don't need anything from them, like other than their support. And like, that's what means the most. So I'd say like everyone along the way through this five year journey that regardless of the ups and downs that has like been there when things are tough and just like ultimately said, like, you've got this, I believe in you. Like, that's, those are the nice moments.

Rob Fraser  (00:21:43):

Like I don't ask for much or want anything other than like people to bet on me and, and what I bet on myself. And then that's like, uh, I always look back to the people that like in the tough times were there. And that's what I, I remember the most versus like someone giving me an intro or giving me a gift or whatever. Like those things are, are great. Like, I love gifts is one of my love languages, but, um, you know, like, uh, it's like when people are there in the tough times, I think are like speaks volumes.

Rabah Rahil (00:22:12):

I love that, man. I love that. Um, fantastic. You made it to the value ad segment. Wow. What is, what a fascinating guy you are incredible. Do you actually, one last question, do you still mountain bike or you off the bike? Uh,

Rob Fraser  (00:22:24):

Not as much as I'd like by, I just got, so like I sold all my bikes, uh, to like fund the company. Yeah. And I dunno

Rabah Rahil (00:22:32):

If, how many did you own peak?

Rob Fraser  (00:22:35):

I'd like, I'd have like three or four at a time. Okay. Um, and that's like a way I would like recoup a lot of costs cuz like I would get them for free and then be able to sell them for like eight, nine grand a piece. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, but when I, you know, when I started the business, I sold them and they took me a long time to be able to afford a bike <laugh> yeah. Cause like I, I reinvested in the business. So like only recently have I actually, well we've done deals now with bike manufacturers. So like I can get bikes almost again for, for a good price now. So I was like, sweet. I'm like, like a sponsored entrepreneur, but uh, I just couldn't afford a mountain bike for a long time. So I do a lot more road riding. I was just

Rabah Rahil (00:23:09):

Gonna ask and

Rob Fraser  (00:23:10):

Yeah, I do a lot of road riding. It's more accessible and with a young child and stuff and, but I've just got a new mountain bike and I've got like a group of dads. We go out and like ride, uh, um, sometimes. And I've been like the worst one for showing up, but we have something on the calendar every Wednesday night. So I'm gonna try and make, uh, make it out some more. But uh, I'm still like a bit of me is like still, like, I feel like I get back on the bike and I'm like, shit, I could do this. I still, yeah. Yeah. I try to like sometimes like stay away and just do things. I'm not that good at. So my like my like competitive spirit maybe takes a backseat a little bit in sport cuz I'm not as, you know, nimble and young as I used to be. But uh, it's still, still fun. Puts a big smile on my face.

Rabah Rahil (00:23:47):

Same amount of risk tolerance or are you a little more conservative now with the kiddo and all this other stuff that you have kind of writing? No pun intended.

Rob Fraser  (00:23:55):

I'd say like risk. Yeah. I think about it more. I think I'd say like I'm, I'm not any more scared than I used to be. I just don't necessarily like need to anymore. You know what I mean? Like before, before I was like, like I have nothing to lose and like, and like I remember literally being like in the start hut, like ready my race being like I'm willing to die. Like let's go. Yeah. And now I'm like, now I just go like do anything even like even a really hard workout or like a really hard run. And I'm asking myself, like, I don't need to be doing this right now. Like I enjoy running and like get to a flow state or whatever. It's like, this ain't my job anymore. You know what I mean? It's just like, I, I, I could do it if I want. Like I, I'm not actually scared I get on the bike and I almost like I have to tell myself I have to talk myself out of things, not into things. So like, so I'm inherently pretty risk on, but I've got to the point where it's like, I don't need this. Yeah. I don't mean this stress.

Rabah Rahil (00:24:46):

Yeah. So,

Rob Fraser  (00:24:46):

Uh, um, I would say probably a little bit, but I'm still like a, a bit of a

Rabah Rahil (00:24:51):

Still ride

Rob Fraser  (00:24:51):

Delight risk on still risk on.

Rabah Rahil (00:24:53):

Yeah, I love it. Uh, okay. Let's jump into the value add segment. This is why people bought the ticket. Um, why did you start endure? And actually we've got some breaking news. Um, you're rebranding, correct?

Rob Fraser  (00:25:06):

That's right. Yeah. So as of, uh, as of the time, this episode airs, we'll be under a new brand name. Um, so I can say the name now where, where you're branding from insurer and our new name's gonna be outweigh. Um, so it's O U T w a Y w Y all one word. Um, yeah, we can pick apart like why and how we got there and what it means, but, uh, yeah, we're super stoked on it. It's like, uh, it's the process. So we've been working on for six months and it was, uh, as the result of kind of external circumstances, we didn't necessarily want to change our name. Um, yeah, but given some things that we can't really talk about, okay. We had options and we decided that, you know, the best option was to use this as an opportunity to evolve. And I'll kind of, I'll pitch you on kind of how I talk about it.

Rob Fraser  (00:25:49):

So like in our past five years, we look at this entire thing as kind of our butterfly moment. So over the past five years, when we were building the business, we were gaining experiences. We were learning, we were growing, we were evolving. And then this catalyst moment happened where we've evolved and you know, we've turned into this butterfly. And though, although we look a little bit different, we may have a new name, our essence remains, but now we have wings and we can reach all new Heights. So that's the, that's the kind of thing we're working on. And you know, we're, we're pretty stoked in the, the more important part of that message is, is that like, although we look and might sound a bit different post rebrand, even though we're maintaining the same logo and we're gonna look the same really. And like same team ownership, product manufacturing, everything, just new name, our essence remains regardless like who we are, what our product is about, what our mission is, all stays the same post rebrand.

Rob Fraser  (00:26:39):

We've just evolved our name and other aspects of the business that are truly more in line with our customers have told us they want out of us. So we're super excited about the whole process. And, and May 1st is the launch and record this couple days out this'll air, uh, a little after and, uh, oh man, it feels so good to be able to like talk about it and, and just kind of like get it out there cuz uh, it's been live a double life for like six months, you know, working on the rebrand and then also kind of keeping the business going. So we're excited to get back to doing what we do best, which is like innovating and pushing the ball forward.

Rabah Rahil (00:27:11):

Did you have any tough decisions where there was gonna be any kind of losses in terms of like old branding or is, or most of your stuff is pretty moniker based though, right? So you're keeping the Sameer. Okay, cool. So there wasn't a kind of stuff.

Rob Fraser  (00:27:23):

Yeah. So like that's the beautiful thing like, so the whole process was like first we were gonna try and find a new name that allowed us to use our, our old logo. Um, then we realized that was actually putting us into a box. Um, cuz like we were trying to find names the, you with a line over it, like in your head and uh, and we just had to kinda like mourn even the loss of like just the name <inaudible> we're like, Hey, we're gonna just do everything new. And so that allowed us to finally come up with the name out way. And then we revisited like, Hey, does the U have a story here? And you know, I'll preface, this was saying every part of this rebrand process was like an extreme uphill battle. Like not one part of it, whether it was like legal diligence around trademark ability, um, whether it was just like the design process or finding, and it was all excruciating.

Rob Fraser  (00:28:09):

Like it was, which made obviously like overcoming every part of the rebrand process, like extremely rewarding. It was very hard. So when we found the name, we got through all the diligence and we're like, we wish need to dial in a logo. We revisit our, you, we actually realized, and this will be easier to explain on video that like our logo spells out. So like the actual circle is O there's a U and the negative space and the T and the U is a T. So it was like, oh my gosh. I was like, wow, this logo arguably works better with our new name, that our old name. I was like, this is insane. So like, I, I preface it by saying everything was like an extreme, uphill battle and painful because at this moment it was like, it was all meant to be, it was like, we get to keep our logo, which is on all of our products, as you mentioned.

Rob Fraser  (00:28:53):

So we don't lose any product relevancy. There's still gonna be an anchor that we can have, um, some recognized something recognizable of our past brand and our new branding. And it was just like this moment, we're like, okay, like the last six months were physically and mentally painful, but this all works. And it's meant to be, it feels like it was like the right direction, the right choice. And, and honestly like, I, this is all gonna be new and take time for people to like think of our new name. I've had enough time to mourn the old name and get excited about the new name and having gone through that experience six months in advance of our customers and community do well. Like I can say, I truly do love our new name and like what it represents. And if we think about what the original name and brand meant, it was really tied to kind of perseverance and grit, which the like literal definition of aura is.

Rob Fraser  (00:29:39):

But as we've evolved over the past five years, our branding and messaging and what our customers told us was that our brand was much more about personal best. And so our mission is to inspire everyone's personal best. And so when we were thinking of a new name, we wanted something that could be representative of that mission. Um, and so to us outweigh means that like in pursuit of your personal best, you have to be willing to put yourself out there and carve your own way. So it's the amalgamation of those two things that represent the new name champion. Our new mission still has the logo. So like there will be period of time, obviously with any name change where it's weird. Um, I think this is like the future proof billion dollar, like move, like I'm, I'm super excited about it.

Rabah Rahil (00:30:20):

How fun, how many, you don't have to tell me the other names, but how many names were in kind of like the final running?

Rob Fraser  (00:30:26):

Yeah, I think we probably went through final running. There was like three or four and then like the whole process. We probably went over like hundreds of names, you know, hundreds. I did like, I invested in like naming competitions online. Uh, we came up with a bunch like so many, uh, and that, that gets overwhelming. Cause it's not just about finding the name. Once you find a name or possible contentions, then you go down the list of diligence. Like, are, are the domains available there? Social media is there competition is the true. So it's like every name you kind of like has like a 20 checklist points of like extremely difficult. And if one of those checks don't and you have to get every check. Right. So it's like, oh gosh, like I don't wanna do it again. It was like really hard. I learned a lot, um, which is great. I learned a lot during the bio. My co-founder I learned a lot during COVID and now I've learned a lot during this. It's like, okay, that's enough. Like really big lessons for five years. Like give me like a year to chill and just work on the business. That would cool. Um, I glad that, I mean, ultimately it's given me like a decade or two of learning in like six months and, um, it'll work out in the long run.

Rabah Rahil (00:31:36):

I love that. Um, why'd you start with socks.

Rob Fraser  (00:31:40):

Um, so even like right, going right back to cycling in, in, in cycling socks or culture, they're like, they're a part of your kit and a part of your personality. Um, the trend goes all the way back to like wall street, where everyone was wearing suits and then the sea of sameness people would start wearing funky socks to separate themselves that found itself tr go towards, um, athletics, cuz same thing where everyone was in team kits or, or kind of darker colors, you wore socks to express yourself. So when I transitioned outta cycling into the real world, I realized like I still wanna wear these funky socks. I, I wanna bring like that sock doping vibe into the real world and, and kind of break it out of, of just sports and bring it into just everyday active lifestyles. But there wasn't a great sock.

Rob Fraser  (00:32:24):

I could find that was good for everything. It was, it was like cycling socks or running socks or caught and dressed socks. And I was like, okay, well the whole world over the past 10 years has moved towards active wear and ale wear with moon lemon, Nike and all these brands. But when I scan the market, socks were left behind, it was still just sport specific cotton, Nike elite socks stance was obviously on the market, but they had kind of gotten more away from sport over time and more into like Disney collaborations and stuff like that. So I was like, where is the like Lulu lemon for socks? Like where is that? Why does that exist? It seems so obvious to me. Um, or even the apple of socks, like tying innovation and beautiful design together to create like a technically functional product that was both expressive and fun aware.

Rob Fraser  (00:33:08):

Um, and so that, that was the idea. It was like, I need, I need a fun pair of socks that are breathable, technical supportive. Don't fall down that I can wear to work school and the gym all in one day. And I wasn't satisfied if it was on the market. And so I just was like, okay, this seems like a problem worth solving. And to this day we're still focused on it. Like, so the SOC industry's multi billions growing, um, high single digits, uh, annually. So I was like, and the other kind of realization was a lot of other companies don't have the incentive to like really go deep on their sock line because their margins are a lot better on apparel. So I was like, you know, this is like a, unless other companies there are other just sock brands, but I was like, this is like a pretty open lane.

Rob Fraser  (00:33:52):

Like there's a lot of white space here, especially in Canada, there wasn't a single Canadian brand and we've secured a number one spot here in Canada by a long shot, um, and soon to be north America. And so we're just stoked on becoming and like working towards, you know, the world's number one performance soft brand. Like that's, that's what we're excited about. And I think it's a beautiful product category. And, you know, for the D TOC listeners, it's a product you can't try on store in store anyways. There's health concerns around it. It's light, easy to ship, easy to warehouse. Yep. Uh, easy to showcase online. So it was a natural D TOC play as well. So there, and look, I didn't know any of this when I started that, I just thought stocks were cool. And it was a fun idea. A lot of this is in hindsight of all the things that kind of worked out just by the virtue of doing and like just trying and failing and trying and failing. So, um, I had no master plan. I've still never written a business plan to this day. I just like try and then apply hindsight, apply some learned experience and say, okay, this, this makes sense. Let's keep going. Um, so that's why socks, but, uh, I, I dunno, socks are fun and you can never have too many socks as adults. It's like the best thing ever

Rabah Rahil (00:34:54):

Totally with you. I I'm totally in line with that too. Now I'm kind of in a quirky job where I can do what I want, but, uh, and where would I want? But ultimately I always found that it was basically socks, belts and watches were like the, the express points that you could have and a tie a little bit, but sometimes your tie still had to be a little bit more, you know, uh, you, it couldn't be as crazy. And it's funny because, uh, running was similar in that sense, running was more so, um, there was some quirky running socks, but, um, it was, it's fascinating that there's kind of those analogs there, but, and the other thing too is you don't get into sizing. You kind of do ish, cuz you guys do have the, the foot sizes, but it's not like a small, medium, large Excel kind of stuff when you're doing apparel, which just gets that breaks.

Rob Fraser  (00:35:38):

My, yeah. And it's not, it's not gendered either. The songs are unisex, which is great low size curve. Like there's so many things that make like, like the, the other rival category would be like caps, which we also debate their unisex. Even there's only one size unless you go outside of adults for the most part they're adjustable. So like, I love the idea of these product categories that are like plugin plays to people that are already committed to like a Lululemon kit or like a Nike kit. And when I look at like around our customers is like, I want to be the plurality accessory. Like when someone's wearing like Nike shoes, an apple watch, Lululemon pants, uh, and you know, has AirPods in. I want them to be in our socks. You know what I mean? So like, I don't care to be the shirt, the pants, the shoes, the AirPods, I wanna be the socks. Like that's the goal. Uh, I want every athlete or active lifestyle person to like, if, if someone has like seven brands, they love, we're the sock brand.

Rabah Rahil (00:36:35):

I love that. And you, you have been become that for me. We actually, uh, I found you guys on, uh, I don't know if you tweeted it or something, but every month we'll do a DTC Roundup of, uh, my head of social will ask like the best DTC stuff to try. Um, and somebody mentioned you guys and I've been, uh, like I was a, a, a stance guy for a really long time and you guys just blow outta the water. It is really, really cool. How do you find your, uh, design stuff? How do you come? You guys come up with some really quirky, fun designs. How do you do that?

Rob Fraser  (00:37:05):

Just trial and error. So I did the designs for the first, uh, almost two years. I've taught myself really use Adobe. I did everything for two years. I didn't hire anyone pretty much until my co-founder laughed, which was two years in. I hired my first designer, my first employee, like around that time. So I was doing the marketing, the design, uh, like we, we were even so kind of cash strapped that I was literally making the socks at one point, like impressing them, myself, um, answering customer service emails. And, uh, so yeah, I learned how to do it. And I, I learned some things that would work and wouldn't work. And then I hired your designer and then she showed me like how to actually do a good job. And, uh, and we've just like in the early days we were, you know, buying royalty free assets that we could got it implement into our designs.

Rob Fraser  (00:37:50):

Like you have to. Uh, but now we have a bunch of designers on staff. Everything's hand drawn, original, it's all, um, based on kind of bunch of core categories we know do also like, um, nature, outdoors, florals, fun, food, abstract, et cetera. We know like, this is all kind of like the moat. Like there's not a lot of moats in DDC, right? Like brand is kind of a moat in our industry. Like we know kind of how to design a sock and sell sock. Like there's a lot of nuance there around like how much negative space do you need? How do the socks, how do the colors need to contrast which colors work well together? How does that apply to a sock? How do you bring that to life? Through manufacturing, without distortion, there's all these things that like take years to figure out. And, uh, and I would say we're by far the best in the industry at figuring that out, we've done some things that are, don't compromise on the technical quality of the sock while applying beautiful design and, uh, that, that happened easy. And we're still, still continuing to elevate that. Um, and it's just super exciting. I, I just love finding ways to continually like improve the product.

Rabah Rahil (00:38:56):

When do we get the triple oil collab? Let's, let's do this, Rob. I need some triple whale socks to outweigh you go kids. What we'll do special edition. I, I just got into super into sneakers. Maybe I just need to start collecting outweigh socks and I'll keep the super, super limited pairs.

Rob Fraser  (00:39:15):

Yeah, we do that. Nice yellow. You guys got with a nice triple will logo on the side. I'm

Rabah Rahil (00:39:19):

In. Okay. We'll talk offline, um, kind of riffing off of that. If you could have any, um, collab like anybody that would be in outweigh socks, who would you choose? Like price agnostic, like say you have, you know, unlimited, uh, collab, budget, who, who would be kind of in your top three?

Rob Fraser  (00:39:40):

That's a good question. Um, one of our kind of like things we focused on from the early days would not necessarily an individual, but as many people living our values as possible. So I'd say if you gave me, like, if you gave me a million dollars and said, you can go sponsor someone with this, I'd say like, oh, I'll give away a million dollars worth of socks then to people that I feel are hustling. Um, because like, I think the number one thing we can do to grow our brand is not necessarily try and like play into the hype cycle or like sponsor the best athlete. I think we just need to empower as many people pursuing their personal best and put the products on their feet because we have the best product. Like that's the best marketing we can do is literally get the socks on feet.

Rob Fraser  (00:40:23):

So I wouldn't sponsor anyone. I would take all the budget and just give away the socks, because I know that if someone's gonna put 'em on, they're gonna come back and want more. Because if I just see it over and over again, and look, not everyone loves them. Like that would be impossible. It's something to work towards. But, uh, you've said it, you know, you bought a pair and you love a more stance. And so, oh, I bought more than that. That's been the goal that day one, right? That's been the goal since day one is like, how do we get socks on people's feet? It's our business card. It's like, it's our number one marketing. So like when in the early days we wanted to grow, I didn't invest in digital marketing around back. Cause I didn't, I was boots dropped. We didn't have a lot of money.

Rob Fraser  (00:40:57):

I said, how do I get socks on feet? So I went around and partnered with all the local sports events. I was like, Hey, when someone signs up for this marathon, can we give them a pair of socks? That's great. And, uh, and so we got the socks on thousands of people on the back of the packaging. We would have a discount code, could email that out to them after, as well to kind of re retarget them and incentivize them to come purchase. Um, and so that was kind of what we did for two years to grow the business to over a million dollars just by like boots on ground selling socks and events, uh, partnering with like red bull and people to kind of give participants, uh, socks. And yeah, to this day, I, I think like I was thinking even like playing around the idea of like a reciprocity campaign or like mail us your a competitor's sock and we'll mail yours for free, like just like facts. How do we get, how do we get more socks on people's feet? It's like, if you gimme million bucks, like let's just put a million dollar to the socks out there. And I bet the conversion rate's pretty high.

Rabah Rahil (00:41:54):

I love that idea. That's fantastic now, meaning your socks. That's really interesting. Um, yeah. What what's been the best parts and what has been the worst parts about, or not worst, but the hardest parts of running that way?

Rob Fraser  (00:42:07):

Um, I mean, like I kind of tweeted this today actually is like entrepreneurship is like equal parts, amazing and painful, like, oh totally. It's it's like, there's so many ups, but then there's also so many downs. So it's like, I would say like the most difficult part is like remaining present. Um, so I think like, as an entrepreneur, you're like always living in the future. You're planning years out. You're you're like right now, we're like, we're focusing on inventory for black Friday. Right? Like it's, it's not even may, but I'm living in November. And then in terms of like, and that's just like this year's strategy, but then I'm also living five years from now of where the brand could be. So it's like, it's really hard to like actually like pull back and anchor myself into today, which means that like life passes by pretty quick and that like, you don't actually really stop to smell the roses.

Rob Fraser  (00:42:56):

So I'm like working on that and let's say, that's probably not exclusive to this business, but like, that's the hard part of being an entrepreneur is that like, you're almost always either like, and the things that anchor you in the present are often the things that are really shitty to deal with, like, like, like a co-founder buyout or, or a legal issue or something. And like, other than that, like when things are going well, you're generally living in the future. So there's never like a ton of, you know, enjoying right now. And again, I'm gonna like quote, chip Wilson again because, uh, I'm just like, and I lovely alumni, I nerd out on his content, but, and I just listen to a podcast again with him on it just for the second time. And he said, his dad said like the key to life is like living in the moment.

Rob Fraser  (00:43:38):

Right. And like mastering how to, to be in the moments. And I just thought about that. I was like, I think I agree. And like, as an entrepreneur, that's the, the hard part to do so anyways, that's like the tough thing, the good thing is just like every day, you know, like I think like the overarching good thing is that, like, I have that fire in my belly. Like I had, when I was racing, I went through a two year period of like, not having that. And so I knew what it felt like to not be living by like my true, like a authentic life, like the things I like to do and yep. For the past five years, as, as difficult as it's been and all the hardships and like the tough things that have come along with it's like, I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Rob Fraser  (00:44:17):

You know? It's like, it's just like, so yeah. Like to loop back, the tweet was like, the second part to that tweet, you know, is like equal parts. Amazing and painful are awesome. And painful was like, you know, you get to, you're in control, you're doing your own thing, but the buck stops with you. Right. So like no pain, no gain. So it's, uh, um, ultimately I think like the, the highlights is that I, I get to do what I want to do every day. And, and that's not to say, like, I think a lot of misconception entrepreneurship is that like, you know, you have, you're the boss, like, um, you call the shots. Like you don't have to work for anyone, but like, you work for all your employees, man. Like, you know, like I have investors, I work for them, like, sure. I'm ultimately in control.

Rob Fraser  (00:44:58):

And like, I can go jet off. I can do pretty much like whatever I want, you know? But at the same time I can't. Right. So like, cuz I have a responsibility, I have people that rely on me. The, if there's a question it and no one has the answer, like I'm expected to have the answer, even though I'm just as flawed and kind of, you know, like normal as everyone else. Right. It's like, as the entrepreneur, as the leader, it's like, you're kind of looked to as someone that has all the answers. And so there's like a lot of pressure that comes along with that. Um, cuz your problems while building your business are quite unique to you. Like this doesn't exist, you know, way didn't exist five years ago. And so like there are some people I can go to for general things that are, are common across all businesses, but like some of the things we're working on, they're like we have to develop the answers they don't exist. Right. So, yep. Um, my super long winded way of saying that like there's us downs and I think ultimately I've just enjoyed like all aspects of it, even the downs because it's where I've learned the most important lessons.

Rabah Rahil (00:45:56):

Yeah. I, I couldn't echo that anymore. And I used to be actually an entrepreneur maxi and I've realized that there's some people that, you know, it, it's totally fine to go work for somebody and do things that you love and then have a life outside. Cause one of the things too about entrepreneurship is it's very hard to turn off like you're to your point, like you're constantly thinking what's the next thing, blah, blah, blah. And like that, that takes a toll on you and there's the, the high they're the highest highs and lowest lows. And so like figuring out how you can be more even keeled and living in the middle is into Chip's point living in the present. But man, it is really ch really challenging. There's just, uh, a lot of things that come with it. And so I do think there is this, I, I I've really came back from that Maxist view of like, everybody should start your business.

Rabah Rahil (00:46:40):

Everybody should do that where it's just like, some people like have a different disposition and different risk tolerances and that, you know, it might not be for everybody. And so I think, I do think it's a very noble pursuit. I still am very ingrained in that, but I I've mu had a lot of, kind of the enlightenments that you're talking about where it's like, maybe it's not for everybody. Maybe there's cuz there's just a lot that comes with it. That is just not fun. And to your point, like everybody thinks you have all this freedom where it's like, everybody has a boss, man, whether it's your, your literal boss, it's your board, it's your investors, it's your customers that you're loyal to. So it's like, no, I'm not gonna go take this vacation because I need to make sure that this thing gets out on time or this needs to get designed well.

Rabah Rahil (00:47:20):

And so as it starts to unwind, it helps out, you know, and you get teams under you and you can start to, but even then like when you're kind of compiled, like you are there, it just never stops. And so I think that's one of the, the big, big hacks of life is like figuring out how you can live more in the present, but at the same time, like that's how you're made. You know what I mean? Like living on the edge is like that. Going back to that fire in the belly comment you made, like that's what makes you feel authentic and alive and like, and so figuring out how you can channel that and you know, make sure you show up in your relationships that you wanna show up in is definitely, um, the path. But yeah, it's, it's, it is interesting.

Rob Fraser  (00:47:58):

Yeah. I, I agree. And like I was kinda asked myself recently and was like, why can't I be? And this just how maybe like a little like egotistical. So I was like, why can't I be more normal? I look around and like even my wife and other things and like they can enjoy certain things and I'm just like obsessing over what I'm doing. And I'm just like, but then I come down to like, but if I was more normal and like that, like I would probably realize that like, what I'm doing is a bit insane. Like, like the amount of pain that we go through, it said like, it's constant, you can't turn it off. There's it's like an anxiety disorder. Like my buddy, Andrew, I forget I'm miso him. Like it's like entrepreneurs are just like manifesting their anxiety disorders for productivity. It's like, I'm probably misting a little it's but it's along those lines of like, we're not right.

Rob Fraser  (00:48:48):

You know, like Elon said it well, well too, he was like hosting SNL. And he is like explaining all the companies he's made and what he's accomplished. And he is like, and you expect me to be like a, a normal dude. Like, like of course I'm gonna say shit. That's like totally out there being, not normal. It's like this isn't the normal path. Right. It's like, like you have to. And I've always said, like, being an entrepreneur, the dark side of an entrepreneur was like, sometimes you have to kill parts of yourself, like hundred percent the decisions we have to make. Like you just have to push that feeling down in your stomach. And like, cause like in the end of the day you're an entrepreneur, but you're also a human. And like, unless you're a psychopath or something, you, you feel what everyone else feels, but you just have to deal with it.

Rob Fraser  (00:49:29):

And like, oh man, it's like weekly, you have to make a decision. That's like, got churning, you know? And it's just like, at some point you're just like, this sucks, you know? Like, um, and like, you know, you have to fire people, you have to make tough calls. Like we have to let someone go last month and they went on like a smear campaign and like tried to cancel me online, even though I wasn't even involved in like the, the decision, but I'm the buck stops with me though. Right? Like I'm the one that takes the heat on, on Twitter and, and that's fine. Like it is what it is, but that's the downside, right? It's like, again, no pain, no game. So, um, yeah, I just, I agree with what you were saying, but I think it's, I just realize and reconcile that like to do what I do and to do what I love. It means that like I have to make other sacrifices and I'm just not normal and that's fine. And, and I don't wanna be normal. Like I love what I do and I just have to accept my flaws and people that can accept them as well will accept me and the ones that don't don't

Rabah Rahil (00:50:29):

It's okay. I, I love that. And kind of building off of the Elon Mustang, shout out buying Twitter. Um, he, uh, what he say he was, uh, somebody was asking him like, Elon, what do you think when somebody is asking you? Like, should I start a business or not? And he's like, if they're asking me that question, they shouldn't because every entrepreneur has to have this. Like almost to your point, like you were saying, just this crazy delusional, I'm gonna succeed no matter what, like I will make this work. And if you already have those doubts of like, should I start a business or not? You shouldn't because like, it has to be like, to your point, you you're just, you you're functioning in a different realm of, uh, and again, not like a pejorative, like other people are not normal and they're bad. It's just, you, you just operate different where you have this kind of UN unwavering belief. Cuz if you knew what the actual odds were, you wouldn't start like logically, you'd be like, I can't win this game, so why should I play it? And so, uh, I think you're so spot on there.

Rob Fraser  (00:51:23):

Yeah. I agree. And I think like, people ask me often, like if you knew what you knew now, like what would you change? Like if I knew what I knew now, I probably wouldn't have started. Cause it was

Speaker 3 (00:51:31):

<laugh> exactly.

Rob Fraser  (00:51:34):

So like I there's, there's a, there's a superpower to being somewhat ignorant to everything that's gonna happen. Um, yeah. And so like, and I agree. I think, I think the, the tell, tell sign of an entrepreneur is the person that went faced with an uncomfortable or scary decision has to talk themselves out of it. Not into it, like I said earlier. Yep. And the people that ask, should I do this? They're trying to tell them, they're trying to convince themselves into it. You know? So like the people that have to talk themselves out of it generally don't ask for an opinion, cuz they don't want anyone tell them not to. They're like, I'm just gonna do it. You screw up. Um, and I think that's generally, it's it all, it all boils down to the same thing that like ideas are cheap executions, everything. So when someone says to me, like I have this idea, should I do it? I'm like just do it, screw your idea. Like just start, just act now, you know, like I had the idea to start my business and the next day I walk down to lids versus is like a customized your hat store and got my logo, put it on. I was in business day one. I didn't didn't waste a minute. I took them just with me. I sold a couple. I was like, great. I've made some money. Like I'm an entrepreneur now let's go

Rabah Rahil (00:52:38):

<laugh> I love it, dude. That was such an amazing value add segment. But now it's rapid fire. Are you ready? You wanna put any mountain biking armor on? Are you you good to go?

Rob Fraser  (00:52:49):

No, I'm all good.

Rabah Rahil (00:52:51):


Rob Fraser  (00:52:51):

No there's no trees here.

Rabah Rahil (00:52:52):

No trees here. Uh, tour to France. Overrated or underrated?

Rob Fraser  (00:52:58):


Rabah Rahil (00:52:59):

Oh interesting. I like it. Bam. National park. Overrated. Underrated.

Rob Fraser  (00:53:05):

Never been, but seems overrated photos.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:07):

Okay. Fair point flare probably. Um, cycling, overrated, underrated,

Rob Fraser  (00:53:13):


Rabah Rahil (00:53:14):

Oh, I love it. Three PLS. I saw you guys just got your new fancy setup, but uh, three PLS overrated, underrated,

Rob Fraser  (00:53:22):

Extremely overrated.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:24):

Ooh. I like it. Come with the heat. Rob Victoria, overrated. Underrated.

Rob Fraser  (00:53:30):

It sucks. Don't come <laugh>. It's awesome. It's the best keeping our, our little secret now it's uh, probably underrated prob like becoming a well known, well known secret. There's a lot of, um, very, very impressive entrepreneurs that are building businesses here and athletes too

Rabah Rahil (00:53:47):

Pretty affordable to live. You can buy some houses.

Rob Fraser  (00:53:50):

Uh, no, not at all. No, not at all. It's like I think one, I think it's Toronto, Vancouver, Victoria. Like the most expensive.

Rabah Rahil (00:53:55):

Pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. Tracking, uh, Shopify overrated or underrated

Rob Fraser  (00:54:03):

Probably well rated in the middle. Yeah. I think they've got some mega improvements to make. Um, but at the same time, uh they're they're the best for

Rabah Rahil (00:54:11):

Sure. Yeah. Totally agree. Taking the,

Rob Fraser  (00:54:13):

Not a great

Rabah Rahil (00:54:13):

Answer, man. No, no, that's very, it can be fairly rated. Yeah. They've taken a super haircut though. I mean a lot of people have to be fair, but geez, it's been brutal

Rob Fraser  (00:54:21):

Portfolio. The whole market is

Rabah Rahil (00:54:23):

Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. Um, NFTs, overrated or underrated.

Rob Fraser  (00:54:28):


Rabah Rahil (00:54:29):

Yeah. Same. Same. Yeah, for

Rob Fraser  (00:54:31):


Rabah Rahil (00:54:32):

TikTok overrated, underrated.

Rob Fraser  (00:54:36):

I think underrated by a large population and very, uh, overrated by some, but I think mostly underrated for sure. Yeah. I think it's like, it's a true superpower right now.

Rabah Rahil (00:54:48):

Yep. I totally agree. It feels like Facebook back in the day when you could just go viral on Facebook in a way, like it's it, it has kind of those vibes. Um, yeah. X games, overrated. Underrated.

Rob Fraser  (00:55:01):

Oh overrated. Now it's kinda gamified.

Rabah Rahil (00:55:03):

Yeah. It's weird with you. Um, favorite meal and why

Rob Fraser  (00:55:10):

Like meal of the day or type of food,

Rabah Rahil (00:55:12):

You can either go your favorite or most frequent. You can choose.

Rob Fraser  (00:55:17):

I would say like the thing I'm most consistently excited for cuz I like restrict is like a whole foods breakfast burrito.

Rabah Rahil (00:55:24):

Oh yeah. It's

Rob Fraser  (00:55:25):

Strong. It's fire. Yeah. It's like a thousand calories. So I try to, you know, not become a thousand pounds. So I had one today though. So lookout world

Rabah Rahil (00:55:37):

Breakfast and champions. Uh, favorite downhill course.

Rob Fraser  (00:55:45):

Most fun riding was probably that Switzerland course shampoo, Switzerland, um, most consistent and just like always gonna be fun. Like probably a line Whistler.

Rabah Rahil (00:55:55):

Oh Whistler. I know that one. Beautiful. Yeah. Favorite podcast.

Rob Fraser  (00:56:02):

Oh man. This one obviously.

Rabah Rahil (00:56:03):

Oh obviously

Rob Fraser  (00:56:04):

<laugh> but other than this one, I, I really enjoy my first million right now. It's just got like, they just crushing it. Shoot the shit. It's just really fun. Like they speak our language and so it's fun.

Rabah Rahil (00:56:15):

Yeah. Yeah. They're doing great. Sean's actually an investor.

Rob Fraser  (00:56:19):

There you go. Yeah. Sean's great. I like

Rabah Rahil (00:56:21):

That guy a lot. Yeah. Really good dude. Favorite place travel to and why?

Rob Fraser  (00:56:30):

I don't know. Um, I spent so many years traveling the world, but I've realized that my favorite place to be is home. I love routine.

Rabah Rahil (00:56:37):

Aw. Yeah.

Rob Fraser  (00:56:38):

I'm saying so I'd say like my, my favorite place to travel is anywhere I enjoy when I'm there. But my most exciting time is when I get to go home.

Rabah Rahil (00:56:46):

Yeah. I love that. And I think that's a good moniker of, or like a, a good heuristic of, you know, you're in a, a good place because I used to live in Indiana and like when my trip was over, I absolutely hated it. But now that I live in Austin, like to your point, I enjoy the travel, but man, I'm ready to get home. Cause I'm, I'm the same. I'm the man of routine. I need my workouts. I need my grocery stores. I need these things. If not, I fall apart. Yeah.

Rob Fraser  (00:57:11):

Yeah. I just, to my like vacation spot, you know, like I just moved to where I wanted to always be

Rabah Rahil (00:57:15):

Precisely, precisely favorite follow on Twitter.

Rob Fraser  (00:57:22):

Uh, probably Elon. I mean he is fall on fire right now. He's so it's, it's just, you know, I know I like is like usually when people get that, that level of status, they, they really watch what they say and he doesn't. And so like I think that's bill

Rabah Rahil (00:57:35):


Rob Fraser  (00:57:36):

<laugh> yeah. And I think that's just so important though, because like he's not saying anything that's not truthful, at least for the most part, people will the debates out on whether or not he's always telling the truth, but I don't know if he, you follow that. My probably secondary follow is like, um, leaked tech emails. I don't know if you follow that, but, uh, there's one from Elon of when, like he was taking a lot of heat for like taking Tesla private in 2018 and it was like an email exchange with his legal counsel and it just said like, he replied, I will tweet as I please and suffer the consequences. <laugh> like, I just love that. You know, like they're telling them like, dude, stop, like you're gonna go to jail. He's like, no, I'm gonna keep tweeting because you know, people are trying to like, Muzz me and they're wrong and it's bullshit. And, and so I appreciate that cuz I think like there's a superpower to like having it all and risking losing it and yes, because like in, in the name of principal and I really like that. So yeah, that was a great follow he's obvious. It's like a very like lame answer, but at the same time, it's it's true. It's in a great follow. It's

Rabah Rahil (00:58:35):

Funny. Yeah. He's a great follow. All right. One more question. You'll be done with the rapid fire. If you could have dinner with three people dead or alive fiction or non-fictional who would you invite? So you're out at dinner table, four people you're at the head. You can get to invite three people who you inviting.

Rob Fraser  (00:58:54):

Um, I would probably, I dunno, guess this before, like when it was just one person, I said my mom, cause that's like, you know, we don't live very close, but like I'm gonna keep it business for this one. Us. I'd probably like the people that like I've enjoyed their biographies. And like I learned a lot just from reading about them and they're gonna be super cliche, but I think I would have chip Wilson, founder of Lululemon. I would have Elon Musk and I would have Steve jobs

Rabah Rahil (00:59:18):


Rob Fraser  (00:59:18):

That just cuz like I think they've all built like iconic brands that I look up to and like really use as north stars for building my brand and just being a business person. So those three people around dinner table would be like, just insane of just like, uh, just like soak it all and ask as many questions as possible. Um, and not cuz a little fanboy, but I just feel like the brands they've built are exceptional. Like it's just, they've been life changing world changing. So, um, yeah, that's probably probably who I would go ahead, have dinner with. I love them some breakfast burritos,

Rabah Rahil (00:59:52):

Maybe some breakfast and burritos for apps. Those are strong picks. Uh, I think jobs was vegan though, or he didn't eat meat, so you have to do that. But uh, so what's the bio on chip. I need to, I need to go more hard on the paint. I'm a huge Lulu fan. He has a good bio out there. Yep. You even have the on the bookshelf look at this flex for people that are listening.

Rob Fraser  (01:00:11):


Rabah Rahil (01:00:11):

Called up the actual book.

Rob Fraser  (01:00:13):

Yeah. It's uh, the original was called little black stretchy pants, but he's renamed it. So like the story of Lulu lemon and it just walks through him before founding it all the way through clarifies a lot of the stuff that he gets heed for in the media right now, he was like one of the first people to be like mobbed by cancel culture on social media in 2013. And I think a lot of that overshadows, like how big of an impact he did have on like the apparel industry as well as like empowering female entrepreneurs and females and they, so, um, yeah, it's just an exceptional read cuz like he went through some stuff too that I felt I was similarly going through and uh, yeah, so that's a really, really good read and I don't read books. I, I buy them cause I like looking at them, but I like listen to books and he reads it. And so you get some of that emotional, uh, feel, you can hear him kind like actually talking about some of the things. So yeah. Anyways, it's, it's not super long. You can see, but uh, it's

Rabah Rahil (01:01:07):

Uh, it's super check that out. Yeah. I'm super into the business memoir shoe. Dog's a, a really good one if you're into Nike. So good. So good. The Isaacs in Reed on jobs is crazy. Um, yeah, there's really

Rob Fraser  (01:01:18):

See that one there.

Rabah Rahil (01:01:19):

Oh you got that one look two peas of the pot over here, Rob it through rapid fire. I, I, I should have known the, the Canadian toughness. Of course you're gonna make it through. Um, of course dude tell people how they can get more involved and outweigh, where can they go? How can they follow you this time? Is yours my friend.

Rob Fraser  (01:01:36):

Yeah. I'd say like I'm, uh, people enjoy this chat. I'm I'm pretty open and transparent and posting often on Twitter and LinkedIn. Um, just at Rob Fraser with two BS, R O B B F R a S E R. Um, if you wanna see all the hype about what we're talking about, product-wise, it's just outweigh.com, which I'm stoked about. Wasn't cheap to get that domain, but <laugh> we got it. So O O UT w ay.com super clean and then on socials will be, uh, at outweigh Sox, all one word. Um, but that's the best place. Uh, me on LinkedIn, Twitter, the brand on our website in social media, that's where we're most active, you know, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and, uh, man, this was super fun. I enjoyed the chat a lot. Um, and thanks for having me on.

Rabah Rahil (01:02:16):

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, man. It was, uh, I, I didn't know half of that stuff about you. It was incredible. You crushed it and you made it through the rapid fire, like a G really impressive. And if you do wanna ride some lightning, they actually have mystery packs, which is something I've never seen before, which is really cool. Um, but go get you some outweigh socks. They are incredible. And then I guess SN a hat. Are the hats gonna be ready to, are those still learning? We're

Rob Fraser  (01:02:38):

Gonna be ready.

Rabah Rahil (01:02:38):

Oh, you can get a hat too. I gotta get me a five panel. If for people that are listening, uh, Rob is sporting a slick five panel out way hat that uh, is a necessity for this summer. So go grab it. Uh, Rob, thanks so much again, dude. I'm so glad we got to connect it. Ironically enough, we connected over LinkedIn you're you are a 0% LinkedIn personality guy. I, I never, would've gotten this personality and thought we would've connected on LinkedIn, but here we are. I sleep on LinkedIn. I don't know why it's I know so many people that do so much work on there and I don't know why it's actually a decent channel and I don't. I need to, maybe I spend too much time on Twitter cuz Twitter shit's on LinkedIn all the time. But um, I know people that do real work on there.

Rob Fraser  (01:03:16):

It's got good reach. It's like Twitter's got like, like TikTok level reach. Yep. And Twitter's Twitter's should I say LinkedIn? Yeah, LinkedIn's got TikTok. Um, but Twitter's top Twitter is like, I love Twitter more and maybe you can crack that code. It's like a proper gangster move, but um, yeah. LinkedIn's cool man. Like it, it it's it's opened a lot of doors, so yeah, it was great. Make sure I'm honest. It's good to connect and definitely wanna stay in touch.

Rabah Rahil (01:03:38):

Yeah, absolutely. And we're gonna get you guys some triple whale socks by outweigh. Don't worry. I will talk to Rob and, and twist his arm to get those out. Um, if you wanna get more involved with triple whale, we are tri triple whale.com and then on the bird app, we're very active. We are at triple whale and then I would be remiss not to mention. We have a fantastic newsletter that goes out every Tuesday, Thursday called whale mail. You can't subscribe right on our Twitter profile. Rob dude. Thanks so much. Hey, we're having a DTC award show in September called the whales. You gotta make it out to Austin. We'll we'll tear it up. It'll be a blast.

Rob Fraser  (01:04:10):

Great. I'm in

Rabah Rahil (01:04:11):

Done and done. Hey, thanks again for the time again. Folks, go get you some amazing socks and a hat at outweigh and Rob, thanks again for the time brother.

Rob Fraser  (01:04:18):

Thanks man. Appreciate it.

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